Starting to worry (tuning help-ish)

[n8kerns]

Alright so I'm throwing 2 CEL's, the barometric sensor is constant and the intake air temp is in my history. I'm getting a new MAF from drifte this weekend but I'm starting to worry because my car is always knocking the more i accelerate the more knock all the way up to 43 on the datalogger unless i'm not accelerating at all. My 02-r stays at like 4.98 if i give it any gas and from .01 to 1.0 when not giving it gas.
I have a b16g turbo on stock boost but i dont go past 5 cuz i try not to hit boost at all, and 650cc injectors. Just to set a picture when i first got the injectors i had my safc set to -15% and i had 105% for my ftlow, 102% for my ftmid and 100 for high. I just set it to +3 on the way home to try and compensate to take that knock away but it still does it. Thats alot of fuel...anybody have any idea what i should do till this weekend. Besides not drive because I have to work to pay for this P.O.S.

[Drifte]

put stock injectors in and zero out afc, then check for boost leaks. Or at least go around and tighten all clamps.

I have a damn near brand new knock sensor in storage as well if yours appears to be "melting."

[n8kerns]

My one of my 450's went bad thats why I upgraded lol. I think the knock sensor is right, unless 43 knock is easy to hear because I really cant hear much since my car is running like a fat pig right now anyway. And for boost leaks there are no external leaks. Only thing I didnt do was open the oil fill cap and listen into the valve cover.

Edit: I do think my o2 acts up though, because sometimes my fto2 reads flat 100 then will start working then go back to 100. If thats goes I'm just gonna buy a wideband. I'm upgrading as it breaks pretty much but its breaking faster than I make money. =/

[Drifte]

They usually do. Id really put it back to stock and start going over all the little things. Ive done this a few times, it takes time to bring a car back and make it fast.

we'll try my maf here quick and my other ecu and see what it does.

[n8kerns]

Sweet I was gonna ask if we could try your ECU to =P I guess I wait and hope. If you drove it you'd know why I'm so worried though lol...its bad

[TbTalon94]

43 counts of knock isn't correct. If you had that much real knock your motor would be dead. Check and make sure your knock sensor isn't bad. Then check for boost leaks. Then change the maf. Put the arc back to what you had before. It should be closer to -25% or so for 650s. I'm on my phone otherwise I'd the you the exact number. 650/450 -1 = adjustment on afc.

[n8kerns]

Wouldnt it throw a code for the knock sensor being bad? I guess I'll check it this weekend. =P Gonna be a talon tear down this weekend haha.

Drifte is selling me a new MAF soo hopefully that gets rid of my 2 CEL's. I hope it will be that easy, doubtful.

[TbTalon94]

The CEL never really goes off for the knock sensor. The 1g sensors are not very good and when they protective "goo" comes off the back of the sensor it causes all kinds of problems. 43 counts of knock is maxed on the logger, which means you either have phantom knock (look it up) or the knock sensor is bad.

The injector adjustment should be -44% according to the formula. So you were probably running rediculously rich with only -15% take out. Get a 2g maf and you can drop that down by 15%...so it would only need around -29% taken out with the 650's and 2g maf. I have a 2g maf laying around by the way. You can knock from running to rich also, but the problem sounds like your maf. The ECU neeeeeeds intake temp and baro pressure to calculate the mass air. Or atleast a real value.

-Trevor

[TbTalon94]

Also do you have an upgraded fuel pump? Say a Walbro 255? If you do, do you have a fuel pressure regulator...cuz if you don't then you've got another problem to worry about.

[n8kerns]

Nope, on stock fuel pump with stock wiring. That was in the future including the AFPR. I planned on running a GM maf once I got a front mount soo I'm gonna get a new 1g maf for now and hope that solves it. And I'll check the knock sensor this weekend. When I had it at -15% it never knocked unless I was really getting on it because I know I didnt have that tuned right.

[TbTalon94]

I have a nice big FMIC you could use, with charge pipe..And a 2g maf, and an intake.

I got a lot of stuff...

[Drifte]

see nate, you'll find what you need here and wont get banned for asking ;)

[n8kerns]

Ok this isnt really related but I didnt want to start a new thread for a question I'm sure is simple =P

I'm pulling my head this weekend and I know my block is bored over. The guy said .75mm over but from what I'm reading thats impossible so I'm guessing he meant .075 over? Where do I get a headgasket oversized that much. Most I see is .040 over.

[Drifte]

Hm that is a good question. Well first you want to find out if the guy was telling the truth, he may have just made that up.

Oh, why are you pulling the head?

some sources for parts for your car:

dsmparts.com (had good experiences)
Slowboyracing.com (if you like waiting for empty boxes..ha)
dejontool.com
machV.com (good stuff)

eh time for class, theirs lots more tho.

[n8kerns]

Because the previous owner didnt know how to put a spark plug in so I cant get #3 plug out. My dad has like threads that you put in to fix it (forget what its called). So I have no idea what that spark plug and cylinder is like. Also to see if my pistons are shot from detonation. If in fact my car is knocking like crazy.

I believe him that its bored over cuz his brother blew it up pretty bad i guess. Threw on a 16g turned the boost up on stock 390cc injectors. (Yes its auto)

[Drifte]

oh ic. So your going to heila-coil it. Well, it sounds like the previous owner screwed you over, and theirs gonna be some work for ya to do. But if you need parts, we have an abundance here.

Its to bad you cant get it to my place today, sometimes its the simplest thing that takes a trained eye...aka an experienced screw up.

[n8kerns]

Ya I'm not a complete noob when it comes to this stuff and my dad was a mechanic most of his life. I just dont have the experience that you guys do =P I figure most the stuff out myself and with dsmtuners search =P but this is stumping me lol

[Drifte]

New maf did nothing, old maf had None of the honeycomb in it, really hoped new maf would fix it for ya. The readings your pda picks up is odd, not sure what to think of that just yet. Let me know when you get that head off and what you find.

[n8kerns]

Will do, I'm really hoping the bottom end is fine. If I need a new bottom end its going to sit in my dads shop and I'm gonna buy a junker for now. Otherwise I guess we start narrowing down the problems lol. I'm kinda thinking ECU next? To bad you sold that one or we could have just plugged it in to see if it fixed the problem. If its the ECU i'm gonna buy a eprom with a chipdiver chip.

Another question about headgaskets. I'll prolly just get the Fel Pro top end kit thats 97 bucks. Should I get a MLS headgasket or would a normal one be fine? I dont plan on running over 20 psi. And I'm confused because do you have to mill your head or block in order to use a MLS or is that non-mandatory? If you dont have to and if i can find one my size I might just get one anyway.
Any input is apreciated =P

Edit: I wonder if we are the only 3 looking at this thread =P its getting pretty long.

[Drifte]

If you need a bottom end I have a 7bolt in the garage $100 takes it, and I can throw in a bunch of other parts that went with it.

[n8kerns]

Stop that, I'm trying to get out of this car and you keep throwing deals i cant turn down at me -_- haha

[96-eclipse-gst]

Thats how you stay in dsm's for so long. People always throw stuff at you, so you can't stop.

[n8kerns]

Update:
Got the head pulled, and once it was off the spark plug came out much easier, just rethreaded it -_- The valves from that cylinder have alot less build up on them. The pistons and cylinder walls look fine. Soo looks like I'm still in the game. I'll take pictures of the valves tomorow or sunday and see what you guys make of it. Also the knock sensor looked fine but I'll take a pic of that too because I dont really know what you meant by melted or whatever.

The heads gonna be off till later this week when I get my gaskets.
Anybody know an easy way to measure bore without a 110 dollar gauge?

[TbTalon94]

just get a mitsu mls headgasket. Get your head cleaned and milled flat. It doesn't cost much.

[n8kerns]

Is that mandatory? Cuzz I dont think you realize how low I am on money lol
I was just going to get a cometic since its cheaper than the oem mls one but I didnt plan on milling it. Just cleaning it myself.

[Drifte]

well, considering your head seated fine before, you should be ok without milling it. As for measuring bore if you have a good set of dial calipers you should be able to measure it and compare to stock.

It seems most of us run MLS headgaskets to avoid any problems, but I hear of a lot of people going with Cometic...just not anyone I know personally.

Get those pics up!

[TbTalon94]

Cometic is multi-layer steel also. I've ran one and they are more probable to cause problems if the head isn't perfectly flat.

If your just looking to get teh car running and don't want to make gobs of power, just throw a stock FELT gasket on with ARP's and you'll be just fine. Just clean the surfaces really well and use some copper spray on the gasket.

[n8kerns]

I plan on running 20 psi eventualy when I have the supporting mods to do so without F'ing stuff up. It already has ARP headstuds in it, came with it.

[TbTalon94]

20psi on a 16g...yea stock HG with ARP's is good. No need for MLS.

[n8kerns]

Really? Whats the limit? I know its not exact but guesstimate.

[Drifte]

I think what he ment by that is its a 16g and 20psi, not to worry. Limit...I hear people running crazy numbers with those turbos sometimes, on a typical setup though never heard anyone getting more than 25psi out of it with actual gains from lower boost.

[TbTalon94]

What I'm saying is, you won't be running the boost and/or horsepower to NEED an MLS headgasket. Shit some people stand by the stock and arp's combo forever. I've seen guys run 35psi and high 10's on a stock headgasket. It's all in the tune.

[n8kerns]

Alright, I will see how far I get on the felt Fel Pro one. =P I guess you guys are right, Ricer the STM evo was still on stock HG and running straight 10 lol. I think I am going to get new plugs and wires to because my old ones are covered in oiil. Including around the boot that goes in the head. Those 4 gaskets leaked because there was always oil down there. And I would like to get an NGK setup anyway because the previous owner just put cheap shit on there.

(BTW pics up soon, going to ask my dad where the camera is right now)

[TbTalon94]

Fel-Pro isn't a stock headgasket. I know a few guys that have had horror storries with Fel-Pro OEM (STYLE) gaskets. I'd get a mitsu one. Fel-pro does make one hell of a kick ass headgasket but it's like $265

[n8kerns]

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i114/Mewtd/piston.jpg
Are they suppose to have those notches in them?
http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i114/Mewtd/head.jpg
http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i114/Mewtd/good.jpg
The cylinder that the sparkplug was stuck in and fuel injector went out in. Third one over in the other picture.
http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i114/Mewtd/bad.jpg
One of the other ones for comparison.

[TbTalon94]

the notches in the pistons are for valve releif. They are supposed to he there. You need to take a pic of the back of the knock sensor if you can.

[n8kerns]

Hope you can tell from those. Hard to get back there.

[TbTalon94]

looks alright. When they go bad the black insulation on the back oozes out. Hard to tell from the pics but it looks ok

[n8kerns]

Alright I'll take a closer look when I go out there. Kinda wondering why it was knocking like mad then...I have a feeling this is gonna be a pain in the ass to figureo ut.

[Drifte]

its typically something small and overlooked. BUt ya never know when someone else built the whole motor. I find the clean valves on cylinder 3 very odd, how long was it driven with a dead injector?

[n8kerns]

Come to find out...its stock bore size. So I have no idea if it was rebuilt lmao. The injector only went dead after I let it sit after warming up. Then I'd have to wait hours to drive it again so I tried not to drive it, cept to work and back.

The backside of the knock sensor is black and gooey like. Is that a protective coating or is that a sign that its bad? lol

[TbTalon94]

protective coating was good.

[Drifte]

If it looks like a melting candle its bad.

[n8kerns]

I'll just take it out and take a good picture of it lol
Idk how to explain it any better, its mostly smooth black and gooey-ish. lol

Car will be apart till monday I'm assuming because thats when my gasket set will probably get here. I'm am going with a cometic just because its MLS, my head was plained/milled/whatever you call it before I got it, and its only 75 dollars to my door as oposed to 100 for a mitsu MLS. If it craps out then my bad =P you get say 'told ya so' =)

[n8kerns]

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i114/Mewtd/ksensorrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.jpg
Looks like a melted candle to me. What do you guys think?

And if soo...how much are we talking for a knock sensor drifte =P

[TbTalon94]

eh yea that is showing some signs of seepage. I'd say get a new one. A brand new OEM one is like $65 i think. All i got is a 2g one :(

[Drifte]

yea i gotcha covered.

[n8kerns]

Alright =) thanks guys. Waiting for my headgasket to come in then I can put it all back together.

[Jappbox]

you would have been fine with a stock head gasket like Tbtalon said, i have tuned a 16G car with stock head gasket and ARP's to 30psi with no problems. Also Evos have stock MLS gaskets, I run a stock head gasket and its fine at 50psi. I would have went with the Mitsu gasket as cometic is hit or miss, just load it up with copper spray. Do you have any idea what your running for timing? is the base timing set on the car? I wish you luck with finding out your tune problem.

[n8kerns]

Im pretty sure it was at 5* or whatever. Having the key to on so the datalogger comes up it would say 5*. Not running that is.

P.S. Where do you get that copper spray from =P I planned on getting it but dont know where to go.

[Xboosted23X]

you can get copper spray at any parts store

[n8kerns]

Alright thanks =)

[TbTalon94]

The datalogger will always say *5 with the ignition on. That's what the default is, and you can actually change it if you change your base timing. You need to check your base timing with an actual timing light. Here is a good walkthrough how to do it properly here: http://www.plymouthlaser.com/timin.htm

[n8kerns]

Oh =P Ok, when I get it put back together I will check it. I got the headgasket today, bought copper spray, new spark plugs and new wires. All ngk, bpr6es for plugs. Going to go out and start working on it. I want my damn car back lol

[n8kerns]

Update:
Got it all put back together and timed to the 5 mark (using the link you gave me =) ty). CEL still on, but thats not even why I took the head off. Thing is, it doesnt knock anymore. It peaked at 16 but I didnt see it go above 5 while driving, even under boost. So I think the plugs/wires where shot or something. I'll still buy that knock sensor from you drifte, just to make sure. Only thing is, it vibrates pretty bad at 2500 now. We didnt touch the balance shaft, and made sure everything including the oil pump was right. Anybody had a similar problem?

Another thing, does anybody have a 1g ECU (auto or manual) that I could use to see if thats my CEL problem. Or an eprom one I could buy.

[Drifte]

I have the knock sensor right here. And it sounds like your balance shaft is out of time. DId you do the screw driver in the back of the block to make sure it was timed?

[n8kerns]

No, I was thinking the balance shaft to but my dad said he didnt touch the balance shaft. I'll be honest, he did the belt end and I did the other end, and manifolds. We'll recheck it...its only in the 2,000rpm range that it vibrates lol.

Btw I'm free after 3:30 the next few days to get that knock sensor. Just let me know sometime.

[Drifte]

k, come by my place after 3:30 Monday, I'll be here.

Gold Falls Villa, off Hudson.

[Drifte]

so any change with the new sensor? And get that B/S belt timed? If no I may be able to help you out one of these days. I imagine the only reason you did read knock was due to the bs belt shaking the shit out of your car. Or the sensor sucked...or both.

[n8kerns]

Got the knock sensor in, and b/s timed right no more vibration. Still knocks, I'm sure its either because my ECU still thinks my baro. sensor is still bad (or the ECU is bad) or because I'm no tuning genius. lol I have the safc set to -21% straight across I think, my 02 usualy reads 90-110% cept certain times it goes weird. I'm gonna mess with that tomorow probably. But going from one issue to the next, now my idle went back to crap. I already fixed the idle problem now its doing it again lol, it has a brand new ISC and very few vac lines because of emitions being removed.
I havent looked at anything, it just started doing it after we worked on it today. I'll check the vac lines tomorow, maybe a cap popped off or something.

[n8kerns]

Alright, it runs fine it just can't idle for crap. ft02 reads 160% at idle at around 750-800 but while driving it stays between 90-110. Another thing my fuel trims havent moved from 100% since I got the car back on the road...I know its not tuned that well soo its leading me to believe my ecu is going bad.
Any thoughts.

Edit: the ft02 also jumps to 160% when I let off the gas, it seems to be whenever I'm not giving it any throttle. On the way home my peak knock was 1 and it only did that occasionaly while driving.

[TbTalon94]

ft02 is supposed to go maxed out when you let off the gas. It's decel fuel cut. You don't want a lot fuel pumping into the cylinders while you are decelerating or the throttle is closed.

You should just monitor your fuel trims and try to get them in line. It may take a few days to get them to move. Your ECU has to catch up and make adjustments. Sounds like you got the knock issue figured out.

Do some more research on AFC tuning, there are some pretty decent guides out there on how to get your fuel trims in line and things looking right.

[n8kerns]

Im happy with the tune, it runs almost without any knock and thats good enough for me. It just doesnt run for shit at idle. Its not idle surge either, it doesnt bounce unless its gonna die. I dont really know how to explain it, I think it sounds like it has bigger cams but I'm sure someone will say it sounds nothing like it. I'll get a video if I can and try to post it so you can listen.

[TbTalon94]

Sounds like you need to do a little tuning on the AFC at low throttle/idle conditions. Try adding some fuel. What are your low-fuel trims like?

[n8kerns]

They're all 100% =P and when I'm idle in gear my ft02 reads 160% ish.

I think my isc might have went out already...and I just got a new one from dsmisc less than a year ago. When I turn the ignition on it makes a noise, almost like a relay. I unplugged it and the noise stopped. Could the ecu cause this or is it deffinately the isc already going out.

[TbTalon94]

That's the isc working :P

Your trims haven't moved yet. They almost never stay at 100%. Drive a few more days and see if they move. They should be. Unless your o2 is dead...

[n8kerns]

Its never made that noise before lol at least not a constant noise. My o2 looks new and i get a o2 reading on my datalogger. My stored fuel trims just dont change. Theres a rebuilt eprom ecu on dsmtuners for 150 that I think I'm going to buy next paycheck.

Btw I know the trims should have moved by now, thats partialy how i tuned it last time. By looking at the low and mid fuel trims. They would change within 5 minutes before.

[TbTalon94]

take your ecu out, take it apart and look for burn marks and if it smells like rotten fish.

[n8kerns]

Took it out at the begining of this hole mess and it looked fine, no caps leaking, didnt look burnt. Didnt smell it but everything looked fine.

[n8kerns]

I checked my timing today and it was off the chart, way the hell below any of the marks. So I bring it back to 5 or as close to 5 as i could get it with the slim patience i was running on. My CAS is almost at the end of its movement range. Now it knocks like mad, my o2 must always think i'm above 35% throttle because it never reads anything until I let off the gas. I'm throwing 4 CEL codes, the 2 original and one for TDC sensor and coolant temp sensor. Hopefully I can get that ecu soon and that fixes some of my problems. I'm gonna double check my timing tomorow. Don't know what else to do...this has become more of a blog-ish thing now haha =P

[Drifte]

sounds like your timing is off. Use a screw driver in cylinder one to judge TDC, make sure the crank agrees be looking at the crank pulley and the lower timing cover. Then look at your cam gears and make sure the timing marks meet up their.

[n8kerns]

One of the cam gears was off by a tooth some how so we took it off and did it again. Runs alot smoother now, and my CAS isnt almost at the end of its range. Everything is back to the way it was, witch was never perfect but drivable. lol We'll see how long it runs right for before I'm back here posting again. Hopefully the guy will get back to me about the ecu soon and I can get that.

[TbTalon94]

lol "timing is everything"

[Drifte]

Yea its dumb, but on most dsm's you have to remember to time your exhaust cam a degree off so when its under tension its actually in time...

[n8kerns]

Yea thats the cam that was off a tooth =P when me and my dad first did it it took us like 5 tries to get it, now we got this down. =P

Fuel trims still havent changed, I dont think they are going to. Waiting on a reply about an ecu, or more $$ for an ecu.

[n8kerns]

Update:
Got an ECU and a chip from dsmchips. Car runs great, got so use to the buick Im not sure how much different this thing runs but there is NO knock =D Also seems to spool faster now. Now its on to crap that should have been done a long time ago, like brakes. Hopefully I can get the rust off my back rim.

Once again one thing to the next though, what all is needed to hold the plastic panel onto my door. Is it just automotive double sidded tape and the clips that Im gonna try not to break? I had some 3m shit but I guess its not wheather proof because it keeps coming off, and I cant open my door very far without bending the panel.

Someone should rename this thread to Nates DSM issues or something to that effect lol =P

Edit: bought some clips and double sided tape from O O O O'reilly's hopefully theres not something else to it, I'll find out when I take it off tomorow =P