Why i'm voting... [Archive] - Iowa Auto Forums

69gt4speed

07-19-2008, 11:53 PM

Think what you want, this recent Anita ordeal opened my eyes, did a lil research on statistics. I think it is a outrage for the money we pay to co. A lil sample.

The government spends upwards of $30 billion a year on homeland security. Such spending seems important. Since 2001, 2,996 people in the United States have died from terrorism â€“ all as a result of the 9/11 attacks. In that same period of time, 490,000 people have died from prescription drugs, not counting the Vioxx scandal. That means that prescription drugs in this country are at least 16,400 percent deadlier than terrorism. Again, those are the conservative numbers. A more realistic number, which would include deaths from over-the-counter drugs, makes drug consumption 32,000 percent deadlier than terrorism. But the scope of "Death by Medicine" is even wider. Conventional medicine, including unnecessary surgeries, bedsores and medical errors, is 104,700 percent deadlier than terrorism. Yet, our government's attention and money is not put into reforming health care. You guys are young don't see drs much, but know just like a car mech there can be good and there are mess ups every day.

You guys watch tv every night, over and over drug ads. The pharmaceutical industry is a multi-trillion dollar business. Companies spend billions on advertising and promotions for prescription drugs. Who can remember the last time they watched television and weren't bombarded with ads for pills treating everything from erectile dysfunction to sleeplessness? And who has ever been to a doctor's office or hospital and not seen every pen, notepad and post-it bearing the logo of some prescription drug? This is fact. They are buying drs., to get them to write expensive drugs at the least. Every damn area it is the same, more profit, no matter how or the results imo. These gov. ppl can't even find bad vegetables. So when ur kids gets the sh-ts or you, thank understaffed fda.

Like Phil gramm said the other day everything is great....We are a bunch of whiners.
He was John McCainâ€™s presidential campaign co-chair and his most senior economic adviser from summer 2007 to July 18, 2008. Got fired...

While advising the McCain campaign, Gramm was being paid by UBS to lobby Congress about the U.S. mortgage crisis. During this time, "the mortgage industry pressed Congress to roll back strong state rules that sought to stem the rise of predatory tactics used by lenders and brokers to place homeowners in high-cost mortgages." According to Politico.com, Gramm had input on McCain's March 26, 2008 policy speech on the mortgage crisis.

Ya he's in touch w reality, as long as he gets $ he's happy. That's lobbyist #6 to get the boot btw. They did make new rules to bar lobbyists which is good.

ZEE

07-20-2008, 12:44 AM

It is true that you are more likely to have issues with a prescription drug than terrorism. But you also have to understand the sheer numbers of people that use, will use , or have to use prescription drugs. The number would be staggering. So even with those numbers of fatalities against the staggering number of users. The prescription drugs are still relatively safe. Your more likely to get in a car accident than die from a prescription that was used as prescribed buy a doctor. Your statistics don't say what number of those fatalities were related to un prescribed or illegal usage. I hate statistics because you can make anything sound good or bad by just omitting a few details.

69gt4speed

07-20-2008, 01:40 AM

Let me tell you Jay almost every drug almost has a long list of sides effects. Take my metoprolol or my simvastatin. or Anita's ciprofloxacin (we had to change that) to clindamycin. She had classic side effects. BODY AS A WHOLE: headache, abdominal pain/discomfort, foot pain, pain, pain in extremities, injection site reaction (ciprofloxacin intravenous)

CARDIOVASCULAR: palpitation, atrial flutter, ventricular ectopy, syncope, hypertension, angina pectoris, myocardial infarction, cardiopulmonary arrest, cerebral thrombosis, phlebitis, tachycardia, migraine, hypotension

CENTRAL NERVOUS SYSTEM: restlessness, dizziness, lightheadedness, insomnia, nightmares, hallucinations, manic reaction, irritability, tremor, ataxia, convulsive seizures, lethargy, drowsiness, weakness, malaise, anorexia, phobia, depersonalization, depression, paresthesia, abnormal gait, grand mal convulsion

GASTROINTESTINAL: painful oral mucosa, oral candidiasis, dysphagia, intestinal perforation, gastrointestinal bleeding, cholestatic jaundice, hepatitis

HEMIC/LYMPHATIC: lymphadenopathy, petechia

METABOLIC/NUTRITIONAL: amylase increase, lipase increase

MUSCULOSKELETAL: arthralgia or back pain, joint stiffness, achiness, neck or chest pain, flare up of gout

That's only one survey of effects, you look as a whole patients reactions it is not good. It is the anthrax antibiotic. Serious stuff here. The fluorinated compounds seem to increase side effects. Unfortunately it is given to all kinds of animals for preventative treatments.
http://www.westonaprice.org/healthissues/cipro.html

MustangSally

07-20-2008, 01:54 AM

Think what you want, this recent Anita ordeal opened my eyes, did a lil research on statistics. I think it is a outrage for the money we pay to co. A lil sample.Â*The government spends upwards of $30 billion a year on homeland security. Such spending seems important. Since 2001, 2,996 people in the United States have died from terrorism â€“ all as a result of the 9/11 attacks. In that same period of time, 490,000 people have died from prescription drugs, not counting the Vioxx scandal. That means that prescription drugs in this country are at least 16,400 percent deadlier than terrorism. Again, those are the conservative numbers. A more realistic number, which would include deaths from over-the-counter drugs, makes drug consumption 32,000 percent deadlier than terrorism. But the scope of "Death by Medicine" is even wider.Â*Â* Conventional medicine, including unnecessary surgeries, bedsores and medical errors, is 104,700 percent deadlier than terrorism. Yet, our government's attention and money is not put into reforming health care. You guys are young don't see drs much, but know just like a car mech there can be good and there are mess ups every day.Â*.I agree with everything Rob has stated but decided to only quote this part as I can verifly first hand that this statement is true!I went to a clinic May 30,08 because of a stomach ache with sharp pains to my left side, the doctor sent me to Mercy Hospital for some tests ( this was on a Friday afternoon ). A CT was doneÂ* I was told that my Appendix was enlargedÂ* and inflamed that there also was a large mass seen, the nurse practioner that was seeing me at Mercy called a Surgeon to come in to look at me. I was taken into surgery at 10:00 pm, the surgeon told me he was going to use a Scope and cut 3 holes in different place on my stomach to remove the appendix, he said it was an easy surgery and it should be over fairly fast.Â* From what I was told, the surgery took 2 1/2 hours and the ONLY thing the surgeon said to me in recovery was
Did you know you had 14 staples in your body ? Â* and my reply to what he said to me was " yes, I knew there was, that it was from my cancer surgery".Â* I was releasted from Mercy to go home on Sunday ( June 1,08 ).Â* June 4,08Â* I was throwing-up Bile filling a 1/4 of a bucket up each time I began thowing-up, I had been running low-grade temps ever since I was releast from Mercy. I called the surgeon's office for help and was told
to let nature take it's course to give it some healing time , Rob called the surgeon's office a 1/2 hour later because by than I was not only throwing-up BILEÂ* but my bowel movements were the same color as the bile I was throwing-up, the response they gave to Rob was the same they gave to me.So Rob and Michael got me into my van and took me back to Mercy Hospital where I was admitted into the hospital (AGAIN) as a patient.Â* I laided up in that hospital with a hose shoved into my nose , down my throat , into my stomach to control the vomiting of the bile for a few days before Rob,Michael,Heather,and Dale raised hell with the surgeon to do something instead of doing nothing !Â* That is the day I was told by my family how badly that surgeon fuked-up on the first surgery, how the appendix had ruptured and the surgeon had to take it out in small pieces through the small holes he had made in my stomach and in doing so the poison from the appendix was leaking into my body , instead of just stopping with the scope and opening me up the old fashion way to get the appendix out.Â* That same dayÂ* Rob and my kids were telling me this the same day that the surgeon came in and was asked what he was going to do, he told us that he wanted to let nature take it's course and give me time to heal now that the hose was inside me sucking the bile out. My family told him that maybe we needed a second opionion, then the surgeon suggested a second surgery to see what was going on inside me and the 2nd surgery wasÂ* performed and he FUKED-UP yet again ! The surgeon told Rob and my kids that there had been an accident with one of my intestines, that he had cut/torn the intestineÂ* while trying to seperate it from a absess that was attaching itself to the intestine, which in the end he just attached a draining tube to the absess to drain it and he had to cut out some of my intestine that was contaminated and inflamed from the liquid contents that spilled from the intestine into my body before he could do repair to my intestine. After the 2nd surgery and I was back in my room the surgeon and his surgical-team came into check me, after they were done the surgeon had attempted to pull the door close as they were leaving but didn't get the door closed, they stood outside my room talking about me,Â* the surgeon asked his team to go to court on his behalf if it came down to it and one of them said all they could tell was what happened during surgery.NO ONE SAID ANYTHING TO THAT SURGEON ABOUT TAKING HIM TO COURT !!!Then the flood came and I was shipped off to the Vinton Hospital by ambulance as were other patients to different hospitals in the middle of the night. The first day in the hospital in Vinton they had to give me 2 pints of blood, My blood pressure was so low that the doctor at the hospital was very concerned so he ordered-up tests and found that I needed blood. I was there for almost aÂ* week before they had me rushedÂ* by ambulanceÂ* to St. Lukes Hospital , Vinton hospitalÂ* madeÂ* phone calls to Rob and my kids telling them to get my family members together that I was being taken to St Lukes , that I wasn't in very good shape.Â*Â* At St Lukes they called that surgeon to tell him I was being admitted into the hospital and he needed to come right away, Rob also told the hospital to call my family doctorÂ* that we wanted him brought in to care for me. That surgeon looked me over and gave the staff orders on what he wanted done, they came in with that damn tube again but I wasn't having any of that again.Â* My family doctor came in next and checked me over then he told me that I needed to let them put the tube back in because if I didn't I was going to die, that he needed a cat scan done right away but he knew I was to weak to drink the stuff that was needed so that I would light-up like a light bulb, so the tube needed to be put back in.I was in St Lukes for a week too so all in all I was hospitalized for alittleÂ* over 3 weeks, almost died twice during that time, and got sent home with infection in my surgical site that had to be opened, drained, then packed twice a day for almost 2 weeks .So yeah I know for a fact thatÂ* what Rob
Â* Conventional medicine, including unnecessary surgeries, bedsores and medical errors, is 104,700 percent deadlier than terrorism. Yet, our government's attention and money is not put into reforming health care.Â* is factual, Im living proof of it !!!!Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* Â*

69gt4speed

07-20-2008, 02:52 AM

I know myself everything can be a risk, but talking to this surgeon might as well been talking to a politican. Only with pressure did he admit his mistakes. Yes, I am sorry no person is alike, from my experience no machine fix is the same exactly either. I just know I lost 5# over this stuff. And am getting bills over mistakes, I ask you if a car was not fixed right first time would you pay more time and time again? Take it home find out it is worse then return it only to be charged more? This is the way it is. I am extremely glad Anita is doing better yet I think we can do better here. It isn't exactly money it's the bs I heard that ticks me off. Only under pointed questions did I hear somewhat the truth. What is missing I wonder. Why I say I don't trust anymore. If this incident, what else are they hiding?

ZEE

07-20-2008, 03:43 PM

I'd be talking to a lawyer if you aren't already. The bad thing is the doctors insurance will cover the suit and he will still be practicing medicine fucking people up.

On a side note these things from a statistic point of view aren't that common. Sucks to be one of the exceptions I agree. When I got my eyes lazered the movie and information they show you scares the shit out of you even though the side effects aren't common. When my wife got an epidural while giving birth. The paper I had to sign scared the shit out of me also with all the possible side effects that it could cause. I couldn't even let my wife read it because it scared me. Even though these side effects aren't common they can and do happen. In your case it would be neglect on the part of the surgeon rather than a bad side effect from some drug or procedure.

I think health care reform has more to do with medical prices, insurance companies and availability of health care to everyone rather than doctors that screw up.

MustangSally

07-20-2008, 08:12 PM

I'd be talking to a lawyer if you aren't already. The bad thing is the doctors insurance will cover the suit and he will still be practicing medicine fucking people up.

I went for my check-up with the surgeon about a week ago, I also took a mini-handheld tape recorder with me because I had questions that I wanted answered by the surgeon and I wanted it all on tape for my protection. Had the recorder turned on and sitting in the side pocket of my purse ( my purse that I rarely carry anywhere ) when the surgeon walked into the room I was in.

I've got everything on tape that was said ( nice and clear ), the surgeon admitted that he should have stopped the scope procedure in the first surgery and just opened me up wide (when the appendix started coming out in small pieces and the poison from it was leaking into my body) to remove the appendix like it was done in the old days, that it would have saved me from a second surgery, and all the complications that followed that lead to the second surgery.

Yep, already been talking to and gave the tape recording to, an Atty from a very well known Law Firm.

I know how some members on here believes it's wrong to SUE others , but they were not in mine and Rob's place going through what I did and Rob had to endure watching me suffer and come close to dying twice all due to a surgeon's negligence in two separate surgeries.

ZEE

07-20-2008, 09:06 PM

Just curious. Since you didn't get the doctors permission to be taped is that admissible in court?

JustinS

07-20-2008, 09:15 PM

The funny thing about that video is that we've had a republican president for 8 years now and none of that stuff has happened. ;)
Exactly, congress fucks up more shit than the president could ever imagine to.

It's nice to see that wench Pelosi and the other democratic congress members can muster a 7% approval rating. :roll:

ZEE

07-20-2008, 10:02 PM

The only thing that pisses me off about having a republican president for the last eight years is that the democratic party pissed away eight years. They've spent the entire time and all there resources trying to discredit Bush, with not much success I might add, and made themselves look like whiny idiots doing it. They should have been working with the president and republicans to get shit done like congress has done for a hundred years. They've not done squat for eight years. Last time I looked. When you loose the presidency you move on. Oh well we didn't win. Lets make the best of it and try again next time. Another reason I'm embarrassed to be a democrat.

MustangSally

07-20-2008, 10:48 PM

Just curious. Since you didn't get the doctors permission to be taped is that admissible in court?

Hmmm, not sure about that as the laws seem to change but I know back in the day it was admissible in the court of law if all parties did not have knowledge of being taped, while being taped.

The tape will give the Atty's an idea of what this surgeon is about and how far he is willing to go to lie to protect himself.

EDITED:
Just found this so Im adding it to this reply to you.

THE LAW STREET JOURNAL
Legal Services of North Texas
Providing Civil Legal Assistance in North Texas Since 1966
--------------------------------------...
Â¦ Fall 2002
Â¦ Volume III
Are You Taping This?
Repinted courtesy of the author - Stewart Ransom Miller

In February 1971, the United States Secret Service, at the request of then President Richard M. Nixon, installed listening devices in the White House. They placed seven microphones in the Oval Office, five in the Presidentâ€™s desk, and one on each side of the fireplace. They placed two in the Cabinet Room under the table near the Presidentâ€™s chair. All were wired to recorders in the White House basement. The recordings became smoking guns. The rest is history. Recorded conversations soon achieved a special place in our history.
Fast-forward to your need today to prove what someone said to a client in a telephone conversation. Such needs often arise in family law and consumer rights cases. Simply put - It only happened if you can prove it happened.
One way to prove something happened is to record a telephone conversation with the callers being the parties to the event. However, you must be aware that recording telephone conversations is conduct regulated by Federal and state law.
For example, Federal law allows recording of telephone calls with the consent of at least one party to the call. This means that if an individual places, receives, or joins a call, that individual may record the telephone call (without giving any warning or notice) and may later make use of the recording (including court room use).
Thirty-eight states and the District of Columbia permit an individual to record such telephone conversations. These laws are called â€œone-party consentâ€ statutes. The following states have â€œone-party consentâ€ statutes:
Alabama
Alaska
Arizona
Arkansas
Colorado
District Of Columbia
Georgia
Hawaii
Idaho
Indiana
Iowa
Kansas
Kentucky Louisiana
Maine
Michigan
Minnesota
Mississippi
Missouri
Nebraska
New Jersey
New Mexico
New York
North Carolina
North Dakota
Oklahoma
Oregon
Ohio
Rhode Island
South Carolina
South Dakota
Tennessee
Texas
Utah
Vermont
Virginia
West Virginia
Wisconsin
Wyoming
On the other hand, twelve states require the consent of all parties to record [before recording] a telephone conversation. These laws are called â€œtwo-party consentâ€ statutes. The following states have â€œone [two]-party consentâ€ statutes*:
California
Connecticut
Delaware
Florida Illinois
Massachusetts
Maryland
Montana New Hampshire
Pennsylvania
Washington
Itâ€™s no surprise, however, that it is illegal in all states to record a telephone conversation to which you are not a party. Moreover, Federal law and that of most states make it illegal to disclose the contents of an illegally intercepted telephone conversation.
Although their clients are permitted to record telephone calls, Texas lawyers are not permitted to do so. See Ethics Opinion 392, Tex, B.J., July 1978, page 580. Nonetheless, they are allowed to â€œadvise a client to electronically record a telephone conversation to which the client is a party, without first informing all other parties involved.â€ See Ethics Opinion 514, February 1996. Furthermore, Texas lawyers are required to provide clients with both an accurate statement of these laws, and an honest opinion of the consequences likely to result from such a particular course of conduct. See Comment 7 to DR 1.02.
Tell the clients that judges and juries like â€œsmoking guns.â€

*Nevada should also be included in this latter category.

My tape-recording my conversation with the surgeon in his office is LEGAL and can be used in a court of law since I was party to the conversation that took place and had full knowledge of said conversation being recorded.

By Iowa Law , the surgeon did not have to have knowledge of or give consent to being recorded as long as I knew it was happening and was involved in the conversation the whole time the recorder was taping.

MustangSally

07-20-2008, 11:37 PM

As far as voting. At one time I said I would vote for McCain because I liked him,.. that was when He was running against Bush, but that was then and this is now and there is no way in heck I would vote for McCain, he's just as bad if not worse than Bush.

I would vote for RON PAUL though, I like the way he thinks , I liked the answer he gave me when I asked him" if he did win the oval office would he start an investigation into all the corruption of the Bush/Cheney Adminstration then bring them up on charges,.... "and Ron Paul told me " yes he would do that ", but since the Republicans refuse to acknowledge Ron Paul as a canidate, that leaves Ron out.

Now, since I AM a Iowa Delegate and have already pledged my democratic District votes that were for John Edwards to Obama, thats who WE are going to vote for !

I beleive Obama would make a better President than McCain, he knows more about the Economy, he plans to get our troops out of Iraq and send more troops to Afganistan after BinLaden which should have been the first Priority of the Bush Aministration to get Bin Laden and not give up until he was caught ( I think Bin Laden's actually dead myself ), instead of causing a war with Iraq for no good reason , only for lies that were made up.

I hope that we knock all Republicans in the House of Reps, Congress, and white House that blocked what the Democrats were trying to get done these past 4 years, out of office this coming election and they can take that bitche Nancy Pelosie with them !

That's one Democrat that needs to lose her seat for kissing azzes of the Jews that want things done and for going along with Bush's crap too. She's a Republican undercover of claiming to be a Democrat as far as IM concerned, but as my dad said yesterday when I was talking to him, Pelosie will retain her seat because of her ties to the Jews through her son-in-law and the Jews have the money to help her . :banghead:

69gt4speed

07-21-2008, 12:23 AM

Zee, Iowa is a one party consent state, a legal assistant told me this before a few years back. It can be used to refresh your memory on specific events if you are a party of the event. Course you know the gov. (due to terrorism can monitor your calls, internet clicks etc. without no reason basically). The dems caved into renewing this cause they hadn't the overide votes so they said just the other day.
http://www.rcfp.org/taping/

Domestic Disturbance

07-21-2008, 01:58 AM

ban politics

JJ240

07-22-2008, 10:44 AM

Since the subject has shifted directly to the pharmaceutical industry I'll start there...fuck government regulation and handholding. If there wasn't such a demand for ridiculous amounts of drugs to combat mundane and nearly as ridiculous ailments there wouldn't be such a rush to release them. Can you blame a company for being in a hurry to release a drug that millions of people are going to jump at buying as quickly as they get the chance? Maybe the people buying the drugs should stop and think "is this really so bad I should put some random shit into my body?" instead of throwing back blue and purple tablets then complaining 6 months later that the government should have been protecting them from the bad medicine they took. You want a babysitter hire one, don't sell the rest of the country into having our government do it for us.

That video is the same propoganda that the left rails everyone for doing to them...I could convert every single one of those situations into something that legitimately supports a republican vote.

For instance the business owner should have said he was voting republican because hes sick of the fact that he has to PAY THE GOVERNMENT FOR THE RIGHT TO HAVE EMPLOYEES. Everyone wants to bitch about how companies are moving operations out of the country, but what they don't even realize is that businesses get nailed at every opportunity possible your taxes paid are at a minimum matched by your employer. The only incentive for an employer to hire someone is that the employee can make them more money. And yet the liberals would like to think that the business should be there to provide a job.

I'm getting sick of the socialist government regulated utopia the democrats all think would make the country better. The left will push and win and push, and eventually it will end in revolution. Its only a matter of time before that shit happens, and we may only be 1 radical extremist (Obama) president away from it.

Give me a pile of Thomas Jefferson quotes and I can write a paper on why a liberal government is an oppressive government.

JJ240

07-22-2008, 10:50 AM

instead of causing a war with Iraq for no good reason , only for lies that were made up.

This kinda shit makes me sick...everybody wants to talk politics but the only shit they know is what they hear in the fucking media....

THERES TONS OF YELLOW CAKE URANIUM IN CANADA RIGHT NOW BEING ENRICHED FOR NUCLEAR ENERGY USE THAT WAS RECOVERED FROM IRAQ. If you don't know what yellow cake uranium is go look it up...in the state they had it its definetly not for fucking electrical production.

Fuck the media feeding people the information they think is important rather than what actually is.

JJ240

07-22-2008, 11:02 AM

Furthermore where the hell do you get that Obama knows the economy better? He has FAAAAAAAAAAAR less experience than McCain and beyond that the abilities of a president shouldn't even be the main concern when you vote for them. You vote for a president because of the cabinet and advisors he will bring with him. If you think any president lacks knowlege about something you are foolish, they surround themselves with people who are there only to empart knowlege and guide policy. When it comes to economic policy in particular Obama will employ other radical liberals who will do their best to send us straight into socialism. Unacceptable considering I hope to someday make enough money to be financially secure through a decades worth of hard work. I'll do it on my goddamn own without a union, the government hand feeding me, or providing me with health insurance and free prescription medicine. My health insurance I have on my own through my fulltime job is already outrageous, but at least on the rare occasion when I do want to go to the doctor I don't have to wait 2 weeks to get in like lenins fatherland canada.

69gt4speed

07-22-2008, 11:43 AM

Everybody has their opinions, but doesn't everyone think the administration would have crowed the yellow cake find to hi heaven? Come on. No one would of said a peep about iraq if they would have done that. Last I checked nothing has been found since israel bombed their almost completed reactor in 81. It was a leftover of that and all gone by 91 as we blew the crap out of it then again. The french sold the original fuel and reactor to iraq.

Drug issue, ya I agree ppl should not expect miracles from taking drugs. But every night from 5:30 to 6:30 we are bombarded w ads. Ppl want to be better so they believe while in the corp planning rooms they are talking market share, stock prices, stock buyback, what projects to increase the price to the stockholders. I hear some of it myself. I think safety controls for food or drugs is important. The dr. get these samples every week want to feed your kid some new expensive thing or maybe a older tested cheaper product if it is needed that does the same? Tested I mean it has been taken by 1000's of various ppl for yrs. w no real problems.

And I like my food decently clean. I could tell u several stories of cost saving ideas gone bad. Recycling water that washes the lettuce to save a few $? Hmmm someone has the sh-ts gets on a lil lettuce then it gets washed and the water recycled? Little things gone bad. Ppl/restaurants mistakenly expect bags of lettuce to be clean.

The good thing w hi fuel prices is it can now be cheaper to produce products here than send raw materials to china and send product back here. I want you guys to have a job, isn't your fault you don't work for a couple dollars a day. Postville just increased wages a lil and magically local ppl applied for jobs and the town might be saved. Jeeze isn't that what I was saying?

69gt4speed

07-22-2008, 12:15 PM

JJ240

07-22-2008, 01:25 PM

I myself don't care what particular political party it is, like I said and zee concurred they are all tainted with lobbyists throwing money to the congress and the administration. With no term limits as long as they throw some pork our way we are happy. (the tropical plant dome deal) LOL

I'll agree with that...I'm too conservative for the republicans too. (why are gay marriage and abortion even federal government issues)

69gt4speed

07-22-2008, 01:26 PM

ZacFields

07-22-2008, 01:32 PM

All good points JJ240.

Just like JJ240, I'm planning to one day become financially secure, or heck even financially independant from years of hard work. I'll be starting my 5th straight year of full time college and full time job in about a month, and I'd like to have something to show for it when I'm done. I don't want to end up in a 40 or 50% tax bracket just because I worked hard and was able to pull myself into a comfortable income so that I can pay for bloated government programs, 75% of which will never apply to me.

I don't think that's being selfish, either. I'm not saying that I don't want to pay any taxes. I am perfectly happy with paying taxes for things that are needed. SSDI, Unemployment, roads, bridges, etc. Just a small list of things that are essential to some or all people at some point. Where it becomes unfair is someone like my dad who makes a respectable 6-figure income, works about 70 hours per week in a factory, and has to pay 33% federal taxes. For those of you keeping track, that's 33% NOT including state taxes, social security, etc. So at the end of his work week when he gets his paycheck, he only gets to keep about 58% of his paycheck. All the while, someone like me who works about 40 hours a week in an office gets to keep about 76% of my paycheck and that's after all taxes and social security. That 58% I mentioned my dad gets to keep is before social security which takes about another $15,000 annually from his salary. Sometimes it's hard to figure out why anyone would want to work hard and make good money in America.

JJ240

07-22-2008, 02:07 PM

Part of the reason oil companies aren't out looking for oil is because of the enviromental restrictions placed on all of it. Even if they find something they have a hard time getting to actually use any of it. The section of anwar that was requested for exploration and drilling was I believe a 200 square mile section in the midst of millions of square miles. furthermore with the modern advances in horizontal drilling they could easily drill beyond the area they were given to find oil without even disturbing anything above it. It is however totally offlimits thanks to mostly democrat enviromental nutjobs. Offshore drilling is wrecking us too, mexico and other countries are jumping right in allowing oil companies to drill near the shelf, however we won't allow american companies to do it...totally dropping the ball.

Basically what I'm saying is its not the oil companies fault, they know damn well they can sell all the oil they can get their hands on...a small price decrease from increased supply doesn't bother them when they could increase sales enough to more than offset the loss. Its simply an issue of an inability to prospect and drill the best locations, and now its a matter of the decade or so it would take to see the fruits of our efforts were legislation to change. I've heard anti drilling propoganda that it would take 30 years to have pump ready gasoline from any new drilling, but with the amount of money to be made I find it hard to believe we wouldnt be able to find oil, drill for it, construct refineries and pipelines/supply routes in a decade or near to it.

DragonUSMC

07-22-2008, 03:36 PM

the Uranium, BAZILLION lbs of C4 and other plastiqe, and high explosive were found. AND it was presented to the media... they didnt care, mainly because the media is left wing. I know in the Marine Corps Times and the Army Times you can still find the weapons, eplosive, bio/chem, and package delivery counts that have been on going since after the fall when we started digging up that entire desert.
Some of it actually DID appear in the news papers... usually its right underneath the Killed in Theater list of Troops names... but then again who the fuk reads that either?

I STILL WILL NOT VOTE because the broken 200+ electoral college system is a waste of time and broken. Especially in the day and age where EVERY vote COULD be counted easily. The system is broken, flawed and falling into socialism... when its finally there, I'll be living in the remote mts. of Montana, and i will probably care less either way.

69gt4speed

07-23-2008, 12:09 AM

I am not discounting dragonusmc, bombs, artillery, c4, etc, etc. That is conventional weapons. We heard wmd till the cows came home, yellowcake, chemical, biological weapons. Where is it? Till someone somewhere shows me some proof. Bs. What politicans say, I want proof and before you or anyone says ol Rob is pro Dem or etc. I say not true. I didn't give a rat's azz about that lil country called vietnam how if we did not support it, commies would take over the World and blow us to kingdom come. I lost 2 good cousins over it and several friends and several others were fkd up afterwards. I was lucky, my father was dead, I got through on sole survivor clause and collected his s.s. and veterans benefits to go to college. There is no place to hide really anymore, that was one the original premises of the u.s.

It's a lot easier/cheaper I say for oil co. to sit, wait till prices go up, do nothing and buy back stock. Energy companies are producing oil and gas from only about a quarter of the 91.5 million acres currently leased from the government.
Pickins has a 10yr plan now. I'm not here to argue, I'm saying drilling won't fix it period. Unless the co. are lying to us? One thing for sure there are more ppl in china every day able to afford a car.

And sorry it is dismal, all I'm saying record profits and current practices suck. And are breaking us all. Food will go up 20% max by next yr. Already announced by fox news so save your pennies. Oil has been said to go to a max of 250 a barrel by 2009 by the russian co. gazprom. Btw I got to keep 68% in 05 of my wage. A lil more now cause I'm married.

JJ240

07-23-2008, 10:49 AM

I can't believe you're not voting Jay...if nothing else you can at least cancel the vote of some psycho radical environmentalist.

DragonUSMC

07-23-2008, 06:34 PM

personally i think if i jerk off into a sock i've accomplished more that day then if i go out and vote in a broken system.

ZEE

07-23-2008, 07:03 PM

The media is so anti bush. They wouldn't say anything that would give bush a leg up. It's absolutely killing the media that the troop surge worked beyond any bodies expectations. I don't believe anything they say. I don't believe anything the national media says.

Wind energy is not the answer. It isn't cost effective. The power companies build them because the government mandates they must produce a certain amount of renewable energy. They don't do it because of profit.

I don't care why we went to war or under what pretenses false or otherwise. We are there. We cannot tuck our tails between our legs and run away. We would lose any credibility that we have internationally. We wouldn't be taken seriously and would be thought of as a weak country that won't follow through with what we start. Why should we act like a defeated country when we are not.

One a side note. I heard on the radio today that the state California consumes more oil than any country by itself other than what the US consumes as a whole.

69gt4speed

07-23-2008, 11:48 PM

Well if we get the oil deal of a century fine for the money and men we have lost I guess. The only real reason so far to be there imo. They want us out already soon btw.Â*

Pickins plan of shifting resources is decent and would provide jobs even here in our towns and could be fairly quick and he is putting up some his own money. I know if gas goes to 6 a gal we will be hurting, everything will go up a lot more. We can't build a nuke quick and uranium is limited, breeder reactors are out. I knew cali was #3 before and I pissed them off already when they started whining. I figured we would have a lot lower prices if they would drive less and live closer.

Â*I know you and others think oh this is 73 when arabs got pissed off cause of the israelies, I say it isn't so plus the arabs have invested heavily in everything here along w japan and it makes no sense for them to lose dollars on a crap market. They are bitchin over there themselves for gasoline prices and food cause most food comes from here.

Â*Sidenote: gazprom is the 3rd largest co. now in the world (the russians). And looking to be #1. So the russians and arabs have won? They will have us over a barrel very soon. All the tanks, ships, jets mean squat if we can't move them. One reason why we need alternatives.

firstonraceday96

07-24-2008, 11:36 AM

ZacFields

07-24-2008, 12:13 PM

Haha. I'm voting democrat because I don't want that other half of my paycheck.

I'm voting democrat because I wanted to invite Saddam Hussein over for tea so we could talk about our feeling and differences...not kill him. :)

Domestic Disturbance

07-24-2008, 12:36 PM

I'm voting Republican, because they'll get it right eventually... right?

Ashley

07-24-2008, 12:42 PM

I'm voting democrat because I can't take care of myself, so I expect the gov't to give me handouts.

69gt4speed

07-24-2008, 01:11 PM

Do what you want, I'm sure my co. along with others might keep us around if it suits their profit margins. It makes no difference in my mind dem or republican. Get back to me later. Btw we at our c.r. location saved them 11 million dollars last yr. What did we get? Hotdogs, ice cream and a brown painted plaster bear. :supz: Cedar Rapids rules...

JustinS

07-24-2008, 09:30 PM

Off subject but in a few days the oil co. profit amount will be released. Why aren't they investing in finding more oil or building wind generators? They could make money off of that too plus give us some energy. No, it's easier for them to sit, wait till prices go up then charge us more. They are renting millions of acreas of land from the gov. for exploration right now, not spending a fraction of their profits developing it and whining about new resources. Ask why then are they renting the land? For cabins or whatever? Bs I say.
So basically what you are saying is that you are against people or corporations making money. Thats how businesses are run, if you can't accept that then there is no hope for you.

A quote I recently read: "America is in that awkward phase where it's too late to implement any meaningful change, and too early to start shooting." Every passing day there is more truth to this statement.

FUCK LIBERALS and COMRADE OBAMA

69gt4speed

07-24-2008, 11:00 PM

You know what I'm saying... a decent profit is necessary for any business. To sit not roll some profit back into research and innovation is stupid.
I almost worked for standard oil in sugar creek mo. All hired and supposed to start in 2 wks. I took a plant tour and their equipment was absolute junk, ww2 crap that was sitting outside. They hadn't refurbished it cause they didn't want to spend the money.

Texas city a lot of their stuff is old, unreliable and a time bomb ready to go. Read up for yourself. I've worked for city gov we did more upgrading utilities for the citizens and kept cost low for joe avg citizen. I think the petrol supply to the u.s. is one of the most important assets to make this place run. We will be screwed if texas city goes up again in flames.
Why it is important imo to get diversified energy supplies. Or you guys come up with new way cause what we have isn't working. I am tired of ads promising and little is delivered be it congress or co. Here's a older chart, the new one (soon to be released will make this look small for the time period involved). I promise right now if something bad anywhere happens it could be rationing again, a quaint idea last used in the 70's. Most all good ideas have came from one guy with a vision not status quo from a co. or gov.
http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/2008/02/img/oil_chart_final.jpg

69gt4speed

07-25-2008, 12:32 AM

Oh yea you guys need to quit believing bs. If we started tommorrow, planning to drill the coast, it has been estimated to be around 2020 to 2030 to get some from there. They can't even build a refinery in time, (if texas city goes up) you have any idea the amount of work it takes? 4 yrs worth. Like I said get rid of suvs/trucks through a gov buyback/trade in to 35 mph/elect cars we would be money ahead esp if we made cali do it. If you need a pickup truck fine limit it to every 3 days at most if you live 30 mi away. How many times do we need a pickup really? I always borrowed or paid a friend to haul my junk. I see ppl at work drive suv/trucks 30 mi one way, get 15/17 mpg and can't afford to get rid of it, cause the neg buy back/trade in. If we double the mpg then 2x less fuel from those ppl. They would be happier along w the rest of us. The speculator would see a drop in use and prices would drop.

As the president and many conservative congressional leaders rally around drilling in the protected Outer Continental Shelfâ€”a â€œsolutionâ€ that would have no effect on oil production until 2030â€”Americans are waiting for a solution that will help them make ends meet now.

That temp solution is selling a small portion of the oil stored in the Strategic Petroleum Reserve. To cut speculators, george h.w. did it in first gulf war. It worked, g.w. did it after catrina, it worked. Problem is lobbyists.

JJ240

07-25-2008, 07:38 AM

The 30 years to produce anything is when you count for the time it will take to get through the government red tape. If drilling was opened in a small chunk of anwar and some offshore locations and all the regulatory bullshit the green nazi's make we could have shit going in 10 years.

ZacFields

07-25-2008, 09:21 AM

Okay, I can buy a 30 year payback period if we began new drilling.... but what are the alternative solutions and how long do they take? Solar, wind, hydrogen, natural gas vehicles, etc. They all take just as long to have a meaningful effect. They are only trying to find solutions that will help sooner rather than later. The oil price is based largely on speculation. Whether or not it will take 30 years to actually start receiving the oil in our system makes no difference because the shear fact that we're working on it will lower the prices.

Take the most recent price drop in crude. It all started with mexico being RUMORED to be offering contracts for their oil at today's prices for the next several years. Basically they were betting that today's prices would be premium price for their oil for an indefinite period of time. The market responds by selling off all their oil futures investments and here we are now about 15% cheaper for a barrel of crude than we were 2 weeks ago.

As far as business' profits go, you have to understand that the reason a business is started is to make a profit for the owners. If I couldn't make a gigantic profit off of starting a business like Quaker Oats or General Mills or ADM, then I'd go start a bakery instead. It'd be less work and I'd make the same profit off of socialist/communist ideas. Without the ability to make enormous profits, there's no motivation to start a big business that employs thousands of people because it's too much work if there's no payback. Believe me, I'd like to see some regulation effecting how much a CEO can pocket, but the business owners themselves deserve a huge slice of the pie as payback for risking their financial lives to start such a large business. You don't just go to a bank and get 500 million to build a factory, it takes years of hard work and sacrifice to build a business of that proportion.

69gt4speed

07-25-2008, 12:17 PM

I've been involved in elect. maint. and gave input on construction projects most my life. 53 million worth in k.c. Not saying I know it all, just complicated stuff takes time to build.
Getting rid of suvs/trucks would take no time at all, provide laid off workers more jobs and save us money and oil most importantly. That would bring down prices as speculators and the world would see we are serious.

Also imo iraq owes us a oil deal for the time and money and lives spent. But that is yrs away to get results as most the stuff is crap over there and blown up.

The wind deal is the generators have few parts and if you look at a u.s. wind map put them close to existing transmission lines so it can be tied in quickly. A substation/controllers is nothing compared to a oil rig or a refinery construction wise. We will need more electricity anyways if we shift to elect. transportation. Sure we need new refineries the ones we have are crap, spew benzene and other not too good chemicals. Look it up yourself. Brain cancer etc. A pic of texas city refinery look at all the parts. Why I said 4 to 5 yrs at best.
http://www.ens-newswire.com/ens/feb2007/20070208_texascity.jpg

I don't care if co. make reasonable profit just want them to get on board clean up their act so you guys have somewhere to live at reasonable cost. To be held hostage is wrong by the gov. or co. and their lobbyists. We surely have to agree status quo is Not Working. The prospect of 250 a barrel for oil and 20% more for food is not good.

Domestic Disturbance

07-25-2008, 01:21 PM

haha this game is cool. I'm voting Wigs because even though we separated from Britain doesn't mean we can't be like them

ZacFields

07-25-2008, 01:56 PM

I'm voting democrats because even though we seperated from Britain so that we wouldn't have to pay taxes anymore, doing the exact opposite is cool too I guess.

JJ240

07-25-2008, 02:45 PM

I'm voting democrat because I think like britain we should ban guns and watch our crime rate (violent and non) go up

ZEE

07-25-2008, 04:42 PM

I'm voting Mickey Mouse because he has really cool shoes...And political talk is evil...Oh and we separated from England because we were being taxed without representation. What do they teach you kids in college, sheesh. :)

ZacFields

07-26-2008, 01:51 AM

Actually the foundation of America was built with zero taxes. The first ever tax on American citizens was meant to be temporary, and Americans were pissed beyond belief about it. The tax system we have today is truthfully based on something that was only meant to be temporary.

And this is all high school stuff. We don't waste time on this nonsense in college (just other nonsense)

69gt4speed

07-26-2008, 10:03 AM

I agree Zac, but there has never been a empire, or nation w/o some kind of taxes. All I want is for you guys to have a shot and me to retire someday.

ZEE

07-26-2008, 01:02 PM

Wasn't disagreeing on the foundation of america being no taxes. We were being taxed without representation by the British. That was the beef.

Personally I don't thing there will be social security when I retire. If there is it won't amount to crap. So I'm not countin' on it.

ZacFields

07-26-2008, 02:08 PM

That's the main problem, ZEE. That's why I believe in privatized social security rather than this funked up system that we have right now. There was once a time where saving for your retirement meant saving up to travel the world, buy a nice house somewhere in the country, or even leave a little bit for your kids when you pass away. That was how it used to be, because you always knew that social security would pay for a large portion of your bills.

Social Security should be privatized. I should be able to keep every dime that I put into my social security, and I should be able to choose the investment style just like my 401k. At the rate that I pay social security out of my paycheck, that would actually double my contribution towards retirement. As it lies, I imagine that social security money being flushed down the toilet. I don't get it back in my tax return and I sure as hell won't see it when I retire.

The other option would be to do away with social security entirely, and require all businesses to automatically add 6% to whatever their employees are currently contributing to their 401k plans. That way my take-home pay would be about the same, but I'd be saving an extra 6% for my retirement.

MustangSally

07-27-2008, 01:10 AM

Why I'm voting Republican, so another Neo-Con Repubican can take up where that idiot George W Bush leaves off to finish destroying everything that our Ancestors had fought and died for to make America and it's Constitution the envy of the rest of the world, at least that's the way it use to be before G W Bush and his 8 yrs of BS started.

Ashley

07-27-2008, 01:18 AM

I'm voting democrat because DAMN that Republican party for conspiring to make my life a living hell. Everything wrong with my life and the world is all their fault (and not mine in the least).

69gt4speed

07-27-2008, 02:59 AM

I'm voting democrat because I can't take care of myself, so I expect the gov't to give me handouts.....

Hmmm everybody got handouts in the 30's due no damn jobs, well they worked for the gov. for a few dollars a day, wpa, etc. even kids. As far as welfare goes its cause mostly some men and women make a mistake and the damn men bail cause they have no balls to pay for their mistake. I paid for my kids through college. That pizzes me off all the time. There isn't no free handouts anymore, kaput, gone. You have to jump through a lot of hoops to get squat. Ronald Reagan made sure of that when he wanted to increase military spending to break the soviets. We had the highest deficits ever...

I'm voting democrat because DAMN that Republican party for conspiring to make my life a living hell. Everything wrong with my life and the world is all their fault (and not mine in the least).

Well got to say I made mo money in my 401k under clinton than I did under g.w. Proven fact at least for me. I even made mo under h.w. get this they (the 401k specialists) promised me at least 2 million when I retired. Guess that for some reason isn't going to happen.

What's our deficit now? Haven't checked lately. Geez wish I could tell my bill collectors sorry I owe ya pay u later when I get done having my fun building my cars.

Tell ya what to get rid of your troubles, just make it at 70, if you make it that long, just get rid of them... Lot's cheaper.

The welfare deal just make it if they aren't married and get pregnant make them have a abortion... Lot's cheaper. Don't say adopt that costs lots of money.

Soon the world will be a better more orderly place, hell just get rid of those unwanted impure races, you know they won't turn out any good and make a way for themselves.

Start a business make millions have ppl lick ur toes to have a job that pays decent. Use all the acronyms/committees to make them feel important and wanted. That will boost ur bottom line for sure. While the ceo makes millions giving pep talks, yahoo. Man I feel better. Everyday.

Ya know it's a real shame that some ppl that know only what their told and what they may have learnt in a whole 22 yrs of life think they're the brains of the world and know everything about life. Check back with me later. I find the older I get the less I believe.
Why I beat my car, cause everything pizzes me off. 600 rwhp to come soon... Drag city look for the lil guy to do good....

firstonraceday96

07-27-2008, 03:04 AM

69gt4speed

07-27-2008, 03:51 AM

Forgot to mention anyone who gets sick fk them. It cost lots of money so far Anita's bill has been adding to 50 to 60k spread out to everyone on blue cross and medicare. Who needs that, everyone paying in needs the lowest cost. My ankle cost 12k to you ppl. Sorry, but I didn't see the ice. I won't mention any other costs for us cause u might gasp at such figures. We didn't have much luck gene wise so let's just screen it at conception and get rid of it if bad. Even a lil. Any chemical/radiation bomb tests exposure to anything voids any insurance. We were told it was ok/nothing to worry about. Smoking was fine, bomb tests were ok, ddt was good. Pcb, or dioxins were nothing to worry about. The gov. and chemical co. knew all...

You know how many times I was exposed to cs 137 within 3 inches of 1000 micro curies? It all had the aec seal of approval in 65. Or 150 kv of x rays at pmx? Takes a lot of power to shoot through .4 inches of copper. I was doing my job... http://www.bt.cdc.gov/radiation/isotopes/pdf/cesium.pdf Sanitised info. Or how many times asbestos ceilings sprayed on which was falling off? It's a damn wonder I'm still here. I was told it was Fine. You see why I'm mad? Due to us raising hell are you more protected. Way it's always been. Through injury/ disasters things change.

ZacFields

07-27-2008, 12:32 PM

Ya know it's a real shame that some ppl that know only what their told and what they may have learnt in a whole 22 yrs of life think they're the brains of the world and know everything about life. Check back with me later. I find the older I get the less I believe.

Rob. That's not a very nice thing to say. That comment has little to do with this conversation. Intelligence does not have to be tied to age. Just because someone is older does not automatically make them smarter than everyone who is younger than them. Wisdom is tied to age, and I have no problem admitting that most people older than I am are wiser than I am. But honestly that doesn't relate to this conversation in the slightest, and I don't remember anybody directly insulting you to instigate that comment.

We all feel the way we feel based on personal experiences. THAT is what makes you a republican or democrat. It's not something you just decide one day... it's a choice you make based on your own lifestyle.

I am young enough that I am able to make the choice to do the things I need to do in order to be a self-sustaining person 30 years from now.

- I do not expect to have social security when I retire. In fact I wish the government would quit taking that money out of my paycheck and let me put it towards my own retirement if they're not going to privatize it. By the time I retire, I had better have saved enough money to fund it, otherwise I will just have to work part time to support myself.
- If I lose my job one day, I do not expect to receive unemployment. By that time, I better have an emergency fund set up with about 6-12 months worth of expenses so that I will be okay until I can find another job. If I have not done that, then shame on me and I hope I stayed on my family's/friends' good graces and perhaps they will help me out in some way.
- The only way I would expect government help is if I was physically incapable of earning my own money. If I had some sort of disability that did not enable me to contribute to society enough to earn an income.

Shouldn't things like that be good for a young adult? Is it not scary to see anyone aged 18-25 who would think otherwise? At my age, you SHOULD assume that you're going to need to provide for yourself for the rest of your life with no help. If I lose my job and I'm able to get unemployment... fantastic! If I retire and actually get to take as much social security than I put in to it, that would be great!

But what good would it do me to whine and complain that the government may not provide me those things in my time of need? I would just rather go out and do something about it than spend so much time trying to get the government to help me.

ZacFields

07-27-2008, 02:19 PM

There isn't no free handouts anymore, kaput, gone. You have to jump through a lot of hoops to get squat.

Why would it be any other way? You should have to jump through a lot of hoops to get money that is paid in by the American citizen.

This is something I know a lot about. I work at a place that helps the deaf and hard of hearing community. Many of those people are on SSDI. There is a big debate going on about whether SSDI should be available to a deaf person at all. Where I work, there are two deaf supervisors. They hold the exact same job title as I do and make just as much money as I do. I know several deaf people who have gone on to get their bachelor's and masters degrees and make much more money than I do.

Me personally, i don't have a problem with SSDI being available to deaf people, but I have also witnessed deaf people who are on SSDI and could get a job but don't want to do it. heck, everything is paid for by the government, so why would they go out and get a job? They might get more money but then they'd have to work. To me, that's just not fair to the taxpayer. If you have the ability to work, the government shouldn't give you a blank check for the rest of your life.

Don't get me wrong, there are lots of people who need it. Even lots of deaf people. Some of them, due to their "disability," weren't able to get a complete education and some of them never went to school at all because it was too difficult for them. But I can think of 100 different jobs off the top of my head that you can do without having to be a hearing person.

So again, I'm all about helping, but I am also for a little bit stricter regulations on who should have access to government help. I know somebody who works part time just so he can take advantage of government assistance and be lazy. Lives in low-income housing, etc. How is that fair? Nothing wrong with this person other than the fact that he's lazy.

MustangSally

07-27-2008, 09:11 PM

Democrats believed the government is there to provide an even playing field for all the people. Republicans believe the government is for the wealthy few, to make and keep money and power.

Source: The TIP, 2004-02-26

Candidate: Republican Party

I received this email from my friend Pam, a former cop. I've seen it before, but it needs answering:

A young woman was about to finish her first year of college. Like so many others her age she considered herself to be a very liberal Democrat and was for distribution of all wealth. She felt deeply ashamed that her father was a rather staunch Republican, which she expressed openly.

One day she was challenging her father on his beliefs and his opposition to higher taxes on the rich & more welfare programs. In the middle of her-heart felt diatribe based upon the lectures she had from her far left professors at her school, he stopped her and asked her point blank, how she was doing in school.

She answered rather haughtily that she had a 4.0 GPA, and let him know that it was tough to maintain. She had to study all the time, never had time to go out and party like other people she knew. She didn't even have time for a boyfriend and didn't really have many College friends because of spending all her time studying. That she was taking a more difficult curriculum.

Her father listened and then asked, "How is your friend Mary?" She replied,Mary is barely getting by, all she has is barely a 2.0 grade point average, AND all she takes are easy classes and she never studies." But to explain further she continued emotionally, "But Mary is so very popular on campus. College for her is a blast, she goes to all the parties all the time and very often doesn't even show up for classes because she is too hung over."

Her father then asked his daughter, "Why don't you go to the Dean's office and ask him to deduct a 1.0 off your 4.0 GPA and give it to your friend who only had a 2.0?" He continued, "That way you will both have a 3.0 GPA and certainly that would be a fair equal distribution of GPA." The daughter, visibly shocked by the father's suggestion, angrily firedback, "That wouldn't be fair! I worked really hard for mine. I did without and Mary has done little or nothing. She played while I worked real hard!"

The father slowly smiled and said, "Welcome to the Republican Party."

Now, Pam...Do you really think George Bush has ever worked a day in his life. Let alone worked as hard as, say, a policeman making $45K a year?

I would agree with the father of this college student - if people like George had to work for his grades, too. But, as you know, George went to expensive prep school before being admitted to Yale - not because of his SATs or grades, but because his Daddy and Granddaddy went to Yale.

Meanwhile, Pam's son, Charlie, went to public schools, had to compete with other young men his age for grades and SAT scores to gain entrance to any college. He also had to compete for scholarships, grants, and go begging for the money to cover his tuition. He finally had to take out student loans he will have to pay back after graduation.

George did not do very well scholastically at Yale, barely graduating. In fact, George was the Frat boy, partying, drinking, using drugs...Skull and Bones. In fact, he sounds a lot like "Mary" in your story. Charlie had to keep up his GPA in order to maintain his scholarships. Besides, he couldn't really afford the Greek system, and even if he could, he really wasn't the type - spending all his time with his nose in a book.

George avoided the draft by getting into the Texas Air National Guard - again, not because he tested in to earn his spot, but because his father, the congressman, pulled strings. After the government spent a million bucks training him to fly, he didn't finish his tour in the TANG, but spent a year in Alabama and then asked for early release to go to the Harvard Business School - not because of his undergraduate grades, mind you.

Charlie went directly to graduate school. He was fortunate because of his high grades, to get into Harvard. But it cost him, more student loans.

After earning his MBA, George bankrupted 3 Texas Oil Companies before some of Daddy's friends gave him some money to buy into a new baseball franchise, the Texas Rangers. The first time he ever got a job was when he was elected govenor of Texas in 1988, more because of his name that he shares with his father, who was running for President the same year, than because of anything he had ever done in his life, and he used his position to raise money to build a ball park, at tax payers expense. A guy named Ken Lay was George's biggest donor, bundling donations from employees at his company, Enron, to give George millions of dollars to get him elected.

As it would happen, Charlie went to work at Enron where he earned enough to marry, have children, and pay off his student loans. In fact, he was just about finished paying off his loans when Enron went belly-up. He lost his job, his home, any retirement he'd earned, and his wife divorced him. Charlie's still looking for a job.

George has a new job. Under his Republican administration 2.6 million Charlies are out of work and out of luck. And Charlie's a Republican, too.

But that's not the point. What is the role of government? Is it the role of government to prostitue themselves to corporate donors at the expense of the nation's health? Not just tax laws favoring wealthy people and corporations, but environment, pollution regulations, and at the same time, not funding education for the nation's children, or retirement for the elderly? Or should government create an even playing field, where we all pay and play with the same rules?

Alan Greenspan today asked the government to cut social security benefits for the next generation of recipients - the Boomers. No suprise, really. As a Boomer, I've been saying for years that my children, members of a smaller generation, just can't afford to provide for my generation what we, the Boomers, provided for our parents.

But Greenspan told congress that he thought it was better to cut Social Security benefits than to raise taxes.

Greenspan and others of his income bracket consistantly by-pass the obvious solution to the Social Security problem. Greenspan, a multi-millionaire, pays Social Security taxes on the first $65,000 of his income. The rest is tax-free. The rest of us are double-taxed, paying SSI on 100% of our earnings, and income taxes on the SSI we pay but never see. Greenspan and others who "clip coupons" pay absolutely no SSI on unearned income and Bush complains that since corporations pay taxes on their profits and before distributing them to shareholders, the money is double-taxed. He wants to end taxing corporate profits altogether.

That is an uneven playing and paying field the government has created to benefit the wealthy and corporations.

There are just as many wealthy Democrats as there are Republicans, wealthier. The Kennedy's, Roosevelts, all very wealthy families. But the difference between Democrats and Republicans used to be that Democrats believed the government is there to provide an even playing field for all the people. Republicans believe the government is for the wealthy few, to make and keep money and power.

ZacFields

07-27-2008, 09:36 PM

I actually somewhat agree with the concept of paying SS only out of the first $65,000 of your paycheck. It doesn't sound right depending on how you say it, but look at it this way: If I make $150,000 per year, am I likely to need social security when I turn 65? Probably not.

I agree that $65,000 is a low sum for this. Perhaps it should be raised to $100,000... but my point is that even if you made $150,000 per year and you only paid social security out of the first $100,000 of that, that's still pretty good because you're paying into something that you'll probably never get anything back from. Over a span of 40 years, you could have put about $250,000 plus gains (the government invests social security into government bonds of all things I believe) and never take a dime out of it.

The one thing that Obama wants to accomplish that would make me excited if he were elected is that he's finally found a good way to spend taxes. He wants a government-funded dollar-for-dollar match on the retirement savings of individuals making under 75K per year ( I think it was 75k... could have been 65k ). Can you imagine how much more and how much faster American's would save if they did that? Heck, a plan like that could kill social security almost entirely within 20 years. It will, of course, come out of taxes, but that's a kind of tax I would happily pay. That's motivation to save... which is something Americans need.

ZEE

07-27-2008, 10:56 PM

Social security isn't a retirement account for the individual. It was never intended for you to get back what you put in. That's where a lot of misconceptions are. Social Security is a plan that the earners pays to the retired. You are not paying yourself. So why shouldn't the wealthy pay for someone elses retirement. The reason social security is going under is there aren't enough earners to provide for the baby boomers that are retiring. There's is just to many of them.

I'm tired of the government trying to tell me what I can and can't do. If I want to drive a gas guzzling suv. Screw them it's a free country. If I can afford the gas, god damn right I'm gonna drive one. If drilling for oil in some forest or something will help to improve my life, screw the forest. If a new highway disrupts some stupid butterfly, screw that butterfly if it gets me to work quicker and easier. We've been killing trees, plants and animals for thousands of years in the betterment of human life. The strong survive and the weak get eaten.

69gt4speed

07-28-2008, 12:39 AM

There fixed. I'm not going to work early either. They woke me up. :Hangman:

MustangSally

07-28-2008, 01:37 AM

Edited: So SORRY !

On a side note: This lil guy here :supz: reminds me of a Nazi hailing Hitler and this one :Hangman: looks like G W Bush ,lol just had to add that in.

Ashley

07-28-2008, 11:16 AM

Okay.. I can tolerate a lot of things, but not racism. So if you're going to be a racist, do it off the board. Not here. If these snarky little remarks keep popping up, they're going to get deleted.

ZacFields

07-28-2008, 11:28 AM

So you're saying that the only "real" job out there consists of "getting your hands dirty," eh? That's a full load of BS. Then you must really hate everyone in politics because not a one of them has ever had a "real" job.

Damn those people who go to college and get an education so they can use their brain to make a living. So sorry we can't all go work in factories... there just isn't quite enough of those jobs to go around to every single man and woman in America.

By the way Anita, what do you do? Do you have a back-breaking job where you get your hands dirty? Or does that not apply to women?

I'm glad to see that I'm getting an education so that I can get out of school and help people with their retirement plans so that nasty people like you can make ignorant comments that you don't know anything about. Sorry if I don't want to follow in my dad's footsteps and have to get back surgery and *hope* that I can work long enough to build a retirement before my body gives out.

JJ240

07-28-2008, 12:13 PM

"MustangSally"]Democrats believed the government is there to provide an even playing field for all the people. Republicans believe the government is for the wealthy few, to make and keep money and power.

I should have stopped reading there, instead I went on to read a funny story I agree with, and a bunch of your drivel that makes you sound more jealous and spiteful of GWbush than actually having anything to say that relates to his political stance, or success/failures as a politician. Who cares how he managed to get where he is...I sure as shit don't elect a president based on where they went to school and how they went there, or what their personal life is like. FFS very few politicians are squeaky clean when it comes down to it...John Kerry was an arrogant PoS, and he had aides to help keep his wife quiet because she had a mouth like a sailor, and they are so filthy rich she doesn't even have a concept of how much money she spends...she bought a house in the swiss alps and had it dissassembled and shipped to the states to have it put back together piece by piece.
Also you might notice I'm comparing your bush rant to a kerry rant not obama....BECAUSE BUSH IS NOT PART OF THE CURRENT ELECTION THANKS FOR NOTICING.

As for the quote at the start, you are mistaken. The democrats believe we are unable to handle our lives, finances, and affairs on our own, so they need to do it for us in the form of mass government regulation of what should be privately controlled. The republican party believes that if you allow americans to take control of their own lives they will use capitalism to their advantage and become successful, or learn to deal with poverty until they take steps to improve their situation.
My girlfriend works with a girl who has two children, and nothing to do with either father. She lives at home with her mother, and has massive amounts of government help. She spends alot of time at work checking on her ebay purchases, and decided against sueing the fathers of the children for not providing child support, because if they did she would lose her government help. On the other hand my girlfriends sister has two children and raises them both on her own with no help from the fathers, owns her own home, and takes no government handouts....BECAUSE THERE AREN'T ANY FOR HER. The situation doesn't matter to shitty government handout programs, only that if you manage to work hard enough on your own to survive you get nothing...90% of the people who get handouts are those who are too lazy to help themselves. (thanks democrats)

ZacFields

07-28-2008, 01:09 PM

JJ, the funny thing is that your definition of democrats is exactly how I've seen it told many many times before... sometimes straight from the mouths of the democrats. Hillary Clinton wanted to start a government-funded college savings account for every child born... something like $4,000 per child which would grow in 18 years to around $20,000 (or something comparable) so that they would have a little money for college.

There's also a much better plan that already exists called a 529 plan (I learned that in bean-counting, pencil-pushing school) which is a tax advantaged plan meant for parents to save money for their children's education. If there are any parents out there who want more information about a 529 plan, please send me a PM and I would be happy to get you some more information about how to get started. But the idea is that you can save money for your children in a tax advantaged account, and the only stipulation is that money must be withdrawn from the account for school purposes only, otherwise a 10% fee will incur.

But back to my point, Mrs. Clinton wanted to do this not because there aren't many excellent options available already, and not because the average person can't set aside $20/month for their kids education if they plan to fund it for them, but because she doesn't believe Americans would do it at all. Guess where that money comes from, though... straight out of those parents' pockets unless they happen to be on welfare or for whatever reason don't pay taxes. The only difference is that the government is essentially forcing everyone to pay for their children's school.

I honestly don't have a hatred for liberals. I've already said that I like a few of the ideas that Obama brings to the table. My problem with liberals is that in general they don't respect anyone's choice to be a republican. I can understand why people vote democrat. I understand it because I know what types of things can happen in life to make you want to vote democrat. Nobody ever seems to understand the mind-frame that goes into making someone a republican. It seems like wanting to take care of yourself and be self sufficient somehow isn't an honorable thing to most liberals.

JJ and I have both cited people who abuse the system to get government help. I could also name at least 5 more people that I know of. People who are too lazy to work full time so they work 12 hours a week and reap the government benefits. How many people are like that in the USA? Probably a lot more than anyone realizes.

69gt4speed

07-28-2008, 01:15 PM

Deficit projected to be 490+ billion in 08, could be higher, depends on oil prices mostly.

I mentioned before the 401k, let's make clear any of that money is not protected. That's why we had a big discussion at work as a few are getting very close to retirement. They were extremely concerned where the money was (physically) well we don't have a answer what banks they use. The mortgage crisis isn't over another 100 banks are expected to go belly up. So like s.s. it's a unknown.

MustangSally

07-28-2008, 01:19 PM

Damn those people who go to college and get an education so they can use their brain to make a living.

Zac, there is NOTHING WRONG with anyone trying to get a better education to better their selves and their lives. Funny how you bring education into it when I never mentioned it.

By the way Anita, what do you do? Do you have a back-breaking job where you get your hands dirty? Or does that not apply to women?

Zac,
For your information, I worked in two different Slaughterhouses , the one in Tama was for slaughtering cows. I worked on the kill-floor there, I was trained to work 4 different jobs in that place. I'd like to see you load and push over 400 lbs of beef liver from the kill-floor into a freezer, I would like to see you clean cow tongues, removing abcesses, package them up, box them and stack the full boxes, that was just two of the jobs I was trained for and THEY ARE BACK-BREAKING, that where I damaged my back in that place.

The other slaughterhouse was in Marshalltown "Monforts", that was no picnic either specially having a damaged back and working in a dam room that was kept at 40*.

I also worked in Victor at the factory making car parts, you know..... side panels for a car or truck, air condioners,etc............ I ran the big machines there.

Try working in a nursing home, I did that when I was 17 yrs old,.......... it's so much fun having to lift heavy ppl when my own weight was only 110 lbs , and having to wipe their azzes and give them baths............ but hey somebody had to do it..........RIGHT!!!

I use to roof houses with my first husband, tearing off roofs to lay down a new roof.

I started working at the age of 14 ,........ Zac, I worked every summer in cornfields until I went to work in the Nursing home and then the factories. I've worked most of my life at back-breaking jobs until I was found to have cancer, THE CANCER WAS WHAT ENDED MY WORKING !!!! So I went to college for 1 3/4 yrs for law , but because of personal reasons I had to leave college.

I know first hand what it's like to get my hands dirty and work at back-breaking jobs

I'm glad to see that I'm getting an education so that I can get out of school and help people with their retirement plans so that nasty people like you can make ignorant comments that you don't know anything about. Sorry if I don't want to follow in my dad's footsteps and have to get back surgery and *hope* that I can work long enough to build a retirement before my body gives out.

Zac,
It's nice to know that your so "PROUD" of your dad, the man that worked his azz of to provide for his family the best way he knew how.

It's a good thing your not my kid,............ I'd slapped you silly for that comment. Thank GOD my kids are the way they are, they were raised-up to 'RESPECT" their parents and elders............. no matter "WHO" the Elders are !!!

Like I said there's nothing wrong with getting a higher education but it seems to me that you and Ashley have your noses stuck-up in the air and think your better than everyone else. The FACT is your nothing but two ppl that think you know everything in life, when you don't know squat about the real world.

And YES age means more maturity and more knowledge.

Zac,
You attacked me by name, so who's the ignorant fool ??????????????

Domestic Disturbance

07-28-2008, 01:50 PM

all because of politics? honestly...

Ashley

07-28-2008, 02:09 PM

Okay Anita.. I really have no problem with you. But you need to back the fuck off. You need to personally know the person that you're slamming before you even go off on him. If you did, you would know that his father means THE ENTIRE WORLD to him and he is incredibly proud of what his dad does (he's now a supervisor at a paper mill) and how hard his parents worked to make life easy for him. Zac is THE MOST respectful person I know, especially towards those who are older than him, as long as he gets the same respect in return.

YOU are the one who looks a fool, Anita, because you let a little bit of fun get the best of you. And DO NOT talk about me personally like you know me. I work full time and go to school full time, I don't have time to deal with your bullshit. So either stop, or get the hell out. It's as easy as that.

JJ240

07-28-2008, 02:25 PM

Actually I think zac's thoughts on his father are about right...I would venture that most of the moderately successful younger people/early middle aged people came from households that weren't wealthy, but never really managed to get themselves very far ahead of where they started. The key to being financially successful comes from desiring more than what you have, and putting forth the effort to get it. Therein lies the strength of capitalism. Sure there are plenty of families who have so much money their lineage will never be poor, but they hit that thanks to a an inheritance created by someone who decided they wanted more and did what it took to get it.
Have you ever noticed that many of the wealthy democrats are celebrities, either movie stars, musicians, or athletes? I have a pretty solid theory that its because they achieved their wealth almost through luck and happenstance rather than fighting through the difficulties of the business world. And now that they have money instead of being busy running the company that made them rich they have nothing to do but sit back and relax. Without the stress of the corporate world they have tons of time to worry about all the poor people who need help and "deserve better". If only we all had so much money and no concerns about our own lives maybe we could throw money at taxes and spend our time fighting for the unlucky downtrodden people out there. But unfortunately in the meantime I'll be worrying about my own ass, how I'm going to find a nice vehicle for my girlfriend to drive that won't cost us more than we can afford, how I'm going to find a nice enough house to purchase and live in while we finish school that is in my price range, but won't be so deep in the ghetto I can sell it once I can afford something nicer, and how I'm going to manage to keep up with all those bills when I have to take classes at iowa and I can't work fulltime anymore. Next time some bum tries to trade me $20 in foodstamps for a pack of cigarettes maybe I'll take him up on it.

On that note I think I'm done in here...people don't discuss politics on the internet in an attempt to enlighten themselves, so theres really no point in arguing when neither party has any intention of looking at things differently when they hear it from the other side.

ZacFields

07-28-2008, 02:32 PM

For your information, I couldn't be prouder of my dad. And for the record, I dropped out of college once and told my dad that I wanted to make my living the same way he did. HE is the one that told me to get through life a different way. "Factory jobs are being outsourced by the thousands," he said. "I make good money now but it took me 20 years to get to where I am, and I'll be lucky if my body allows me to do this until I can retire."

Or maybe it was when I was about 6 years old and my dad came home from work one day and told me not to grow up and work in a paper mill that made me make the choices I am making.

That's what good parents do for their children. They try to lead them through a better path than they led life through. Nobody (except the super rich) truly believes they did every single thing the right way. I would have typed that message with my dad standing right behind me. He knows how I feel and he is happy that he got through to me to make me feel that way.

Anita, you don't know me or anything about me. I do respect my elders. But I don't have to agree with you and I damn sure don't have to listen to you spit out racist comments on my forums just because you're older than me. And I'm also not going to let you call anyone who doesn't work in a factory "too pussified to get a real job." Your little Alan Greenspan post that you edited nullified the respect I had for you completely. It's one thing to be racist, but it's yet another to announce it to the thousands of unique IP's that browse this website every day.

I think I'm done with this topic too. We were all having fun discussing and poking at eachother and slamming the different parties back and forth, but just like JJ240 said, nobody gives a shit. Everyone's talking just to talk (including myself) and now we're judging eachother on things none of us know about.

I will be happy to discuss POLITICS in another thread if anyone is interested. By politics I mean pros/cons of each party, what Barack Obama wants to accomplish compared to what John McCain wants to accomplish and which plans are better and why. I don't want to discuss the fact that Alan Greenspan is a stupid Jew, George W Bush is dumb and was more privileged than most, how I don't respect my father or my elders (which is untrue), or anything else that every other forum in this world would ban somebody for saying.