Reason For Seperation of Church and State.

[amoander]

Now I am hoping nobody takes offense to this, but the video is regarding abortion and if a law is passed banning it, what should be the penality. These are the local areas anti-abortion activiists by the way. The individual interviewing people points out exactly why I feel the US can't create an abortion ban even if you do or don't believe religiously or morally for or against abortion. Here the link. Everybody please play nice I know it is a sensative topic.

http://www.totallycrap.com/videos/video ... _abortion/ (http://www.totallycrap.com/videos/videos_whats_up_with_abortion/)

[ZEE]

I think the way around that is making the abortion procedure itself illegal. Not making it illegal for a woman to seek out an abortion. That way the doctor, surgeon or whomever is performing the abortion would pay the penalty. Not the desperate poor lost misguided soul. We all know doctors are evil. :biggrin:

[amoander]

It sound like a good idea ZEE but there are way to many loop holes with it. Before physicians were actively admitting to or performing abortion and documenting them women would perform an abortion on themselves. There is also unlicensed and untrained individuals performing them behind closed doors. Another idea is other counties. Your idea reminds me of the Dr. Kevorkian legal situation. It is illegal for him to perform euthenasia, but one can kill themselves legally because you can't charge a dead man for murder. On the flip side and this will sound bad thousands upon thousand of people then are killed each year in hospitals with intentional overdoses of narcotics (ie terminal cancer patient) to stop breathing or lack of medical intervention from family requests. But the goverment and others turn a blind eye as well as very effective documenation to protect staff. Oh another name for this in hospitals is "pain control". So the point is made again that is will a very very hard law to write. But ZEE the option you pointed out is possible. No matter what someone is getting hurt in this legal situation. No pun intended.

[Domestic Disturbance]

I think its a womans body, let her do what you want. The idea of it having a soul and what not is more religious based than anything. I could go on for days about it, but I like the point the video made

[Ricky]

nailed them. It should be the womens choice and thats that. Being free means being able to make your own choices about your life. Its not a human yet so its more of a parasite then anything.

parasite- an animal or plant that lives in or on a host (another animal or plant); it obtains nourishment from the host without benefiting or killing the host

i win.

[Ashley]

i think.. if you're not capable of having a baby inside you, you have no right telling those who ARE capable of what they should do. the end. :)

[ZEE]

i think.. if you're not capable of having a baby inside you, you have no right telling those who ARE capable of what they should do. the end. :)

Good luck with that one. So if a woman is pregnant with my child I have no right to say what happens to that child because I can't give birth? I have no opinion by the way, I could care less about the abortion issue. I like to argue.

[Domestic Disturbance]

why arent their blue flames coming out your exhaust? NOS pimpin

[ZEE]

Because it would slam into my garage if I pimped the naws in my driveway. :roll:

[ZacFields]

Ashley's actually pro-choice. I think she was just making the point that the idea of "it's a woman's body and she can do with it what she wants."

I'm pro-choice as well. For everything you can do that is "bad" there are situations where doing a bad thing is a good thing. Yes, abortion is the killing of a person. But as many people point out, what if someone were raped by a mentally handicapped person? Or a convict? Do you really want to have to raise a child that will probably be mentally handicapped or have the genes of a psycho convict in it?

And for the adoption people... who do you think is going to want to adopt a baby like that?

Sometimes is it better for a child to never be brought into this earth. Humans have sex.. that is what we were either created for, or that is the reason why we've been able to evolve so well... because as a species we like to reproduce. Fortunately we are smart enough now to know that sometimes a baby doesn't need to be brought into this world because it would be coming out in a bad situation. People that say that we just shouldn't have sex if we don't want to have a child are kidding themselves. Rewind a few tens of thousands of years to the earliest man... and I bet you anything that cavemen had sex every single day, multiple times per day, and probably with multiple different people. It's a natural part of our lives... though hopefully we're all keeping it at least to just one person now :)

[DustinsDuster]

i love nothing more than stopping someone who is so passionate about something dead in their tracks. the look on every one of their faces was priceless. you could tell they were all so caught up in the goal, that they had never considered the means...

[ZEE]

Rewind a few tens of thousands of years to the earliest man... and I bet you anything that cavemen had sex every single day, multiple times per day, and probably with multiple different people. :)

Ahhh, them were the days :drool:

[ZacFields]

LoL I knew someone was going to say it. Hell, that's what our nature is. There was once a time (albeit it was wayyy back in caveman time) when people just did whatever they wanted. If they wanted to have sex, they had sex. If they wanted to kill someone, they'd kill someone. If they wanted to steal something, they stole it.

The development of language and society is what makes us so organized. Things are frowned upon, and people don't want to be on the other side of the moral wall.

That being said, I understand both sides of the argument. Whether you believe in it or not, you probably don't really condone it. You still "frown" upon it, you just don't want it to be illegal. A girl that used to work with me got an abortion once because she accidentally got pregnant. I believe that should be her right, and I don't think she is wrong for doing it. She would have been a horrible mother (and probably wouldn't have known who the father was). But at the same time it was still something that I would call a "negative" aspect of her history. I wouldn't equate it to getting your tonsils out or anything.

I think that's where the argument gets mixed up. Bible thumpers get angry at people like us because we don't want it to be illegal. However, it's not as if we are condoning the idea of abortion, we just think it should be legal.

For the record, I think assisted suicide should be legal. Someone has the right to take their own life, then a professional licensed doctor should have the right to assist in suicide by lethal injection. It's legal to "pull the plug" and to put someone on morphine and wait until they die... I'm not seeing a difference.

[amoander]

Damn Zac I believe three time now i haven't had to write anything because you say almost exactly the same views i have lol. One thing that does bother me a little though is a women saying it is her decision to keep a baby or not and only her decision. I do agree with this but half the DNA is the males. On the same token a women will have far more invested (fetal development, birthing process, post birth care, breast feeiding etc.)and far more to lose in the situation (possible death, pain emotional distress, medical expenses etc.). I believe females have to deal with far more of the childs developemnt therefore the majority, allowing her the final decision in the situation. Good points everyone. ZEE YOU ARE NOW LABELED THE DEVILS ADVOCATE LOL.

[Ashley]

I believe females have to deal with far more of the childs developemnt therefore the majority, allowing her the final decision in the situation.

Agreed!

If a woman gets pregnant and the boyfriend/husband/random guy wants her to have an abortion, but she wants to keep it.. I see NO reason why the guy has any say in that situation. If you don't want a kid, fine, don't be around the kid, sign over your parental rights and then legally you don't have to have the kid.

The reverse situation, a woman gets pregnant and the boyfriend/whoever wants her to keep it but she wants an abortion.. there's not much of an argument there, either, because the dad doesn't HAVE to stick around if suddenly he decides he doesn't want to be a dad anymore. So now the mom is stuck with a kid she didn't even want to have in the first place.

It's a dumb argument to have, I guess because no one is ever going to convince anyone else to change their mind. If you're pro-life, fine, pro-choice whatever. BUT, moral of the story: USE BIRTH CONTROL :D End of argument.

[Ricky]

butt sex fixes everything.

[ZacFields]

butt sex fixes everything.

for sure!

[ZEE]

Damn Zac I believe three time now i haven't had to write anything because you say almost exactly the same views i have lol. One thing that does bother me a little though is a women saying it is her decision to keep a baby or not and only her decision. I do agree with this but half the DNA is the males. On the same token a women will have far more invested (fetal development, birthing process, post birth care, breast feeiding etc.)and far more to lose in the situation (possible death, pain emotional distress, medical expenses etc.). I believe females have to deal with far more of the childs developemnt therefore the majority, allowing her the final decision in the situation. Good points everyone. ZEE YOU ARE NOW LABELED THE DEVILS ADVOCATE LOL.

A woman will have more invested physically and emotionally. But lets face it. The male will have more invested financially. In our society the male generally carries the majority of the financial burden. This being said the male should have some say because he will be incurring a lifetime of financial support. Trust me. Kids aren't cheap.



I believe females have to deal with far more of the childs developemnt therefore the majority, allowing her the final decision in the situation.

Agreed!

If a woman gets pregnant and the boyfriend/husband/random guy wants her to have an abortion, but she wants to keep it.. I see NO reason why the guy has any say in that situation. If you don't want a kid, fine, don't be around the kid, sign over your parental rights and then legally you don't have to have the kid.

The reverse situation, a woman gets pregnant and the boyfriend/whoever wants her to keep it but she wants an abortion.. there's not much of an argument there, either, because the dad doesn't HAVE to stick around if suddenly he decides he doesn't want to be a dad anymore. So now the mom is stuck with a kid she didn't even want to have in the first place.

It's a dumb argument to have, I guess because no one is ever going to convince anyone else to change their mind. If you're pro-life, fine, pro-choice whatever. BUT, moral of the story: USE BIRTH CONTROL :D End of argument.

If the women has a child either against her partners wishes or through trickery the man will not be able to just walk away if he wants to. The woman will not allow that. Most times she will want the father to to pay child support for a baby he didn't want. It's human nature. The mom will always try to get child support. She would NEVER let the father walk away with out trying to get something out of him because it's his baby to, wanted or not.

This game is fun :supz:

[Ashley]

I just think you don't know women very well, or in the very least, underestimate them greatly.

[ZEE]

I've known people that have been in that situation. Show me a woman that has not gone after the father for child support and I'll show you a woman that is financially well off.

[Ashley]

Well, to solve the whole thing: if you don't want a woman to have your baby, zip up your pants. If you don't want to pay for a baby, don't do things that make a baby. Easy as pie.

[Drifte]

I've known people that have been in that situation. Show me a woman that has not gone after the father for child support and I'll show you a woman that is financially well off.

OH!!!!

damn this is good. I dont actually have to say anything, zee, eric and zac covered just about everything. Ashley you do to, but you seem really caught up with it being 100% womans choice. Which then requires legal action etc, where a man is guaranteed to lose and pay support unless the woman steps in and says I dont want him involved.

[Ashley]

well that's how it usually goes.. women think it's their choice, and men think they need to be involved. ;)

[Drifte]

well that's how it usually goes.. women think it's their choice, and men think they need to be involved. ;)

So a man shouldn't be involved?

I talked to b about it, she and I agree its between the man and the woman entirely.

reminds me, anyone watch the big lebouski?

[Drifte]

People that say that we just shouldn't have sex if we don't want to have a child are kidding themselves.


Well, to solve the whole thing: if you don't want a woman to have your baby, zip up your pants. If you don't want to pay for a baby, don't do things that make a baby. Easy as pie.


Hmmm, you two have a nice day discussing that one. :yawinkle:

[Ashley]

I also said use birth control earlier ;)

I'm not saying no one should have sex if you don't want to have a baby.. I just mean, there are ways to prevent getting pregnant. Birth control being one, and not having sex is another. Some people are just too dumb to use birth control correctly, haha, so they should probably just not do it at all. :)

Also, men can be involved all they want.. but ultimately, what they say doesn't really matter as it's the woman who has to decide if she's gonna go through with it.

[amoander]

Now ZEE if you look at my statements i wrote i was only referring to developing the child till birth, birthing process, and then after birth till physical dependence of the child is less on the mother (ie breast feeding) and the mothers physical pain/damage has decreased or healed since birth. You refer only to the financial raisiing of the child. The male really doesn't do jake crap till post birth of child and again therefore deciding for an abortion is the women choice (and refer to my previous writings lol). (2nd note to cover my butt the male can do a great deal for the female before, during, and after birth. But isn't necessary)
The choice of deciding to raise the child and so fourth is a whole different bag of goodies (and im not going there right now-like adoption and so on, Im just refering to the decision to give birth or to abort). The earning gap between men and women is quickly narrowing ZEE.
The points that most women will persue financial assistance from the male even if he did or didn't want the child is a very valid and strong point. One thing I believe is over looked is that people complain about the financial burden and many don't take into consideration how much time it takes for someone to change diapers, feed the child, teach the child and take care of activities of daily living for that child. This is what the single parent must do and would cost huge amounts of money to pay someone to do, so some financial asssitance from the father even if he did or didn't want the child isn't unreasonable, but gets into a sticky situation over how much (im not goin there also). Time is very valuable and many times over looked.
So the point that the male will have to burden the large financial part of the child isn't a valid reason for the father to have the right to determine if the mother should or shouldn't have an abortion.

[amoander]

This have been actually pretty fun and everyone has been polite and respectful to other peoples views as well as stating ideas in a matter of fact manner which doesn't force opinions onto other people. I enjoy intelligent polite and nonaggressive postings like this. I thought the video made people think. Like Dustin pointed out you simply can't focus and a goal and fly blindly by religious or personal ideologies. One must understand the means to their actions and consequences. So the video applies to all passionate ideas. Also I love how ZEE can switch views or play the devils advocate (antagonize in a polite way) to stimulate more conversation and different thinking. Thanks ZEE.
But i have found solution to all of this!!! Everyone smokes enough pot that the males will become steril, the women will have defective ovulations, and everyone will be getting laid and none will become pregnant.

[ZEE]

Every one should be rendered sterile at birth. Then we can go to Kmart to buy babies. Watch out for those blue light specials. :baby:

[Domestic Disturbance]

well that's how it usually goes.. women think it's their choice, and men think they need to be involved. ;)
We have to get involved, otherwise you're just asking for something to go wrong then :biggrin:

I do know people who have been tricked into having a kid by a woman, trying to keep the guy or whatever, because the women would get themselves pregnant by stopping their birth control. A pretty weak situation