Import vs. Domestic, just a thought

[DustinsDuster]

so today while working, i had a thought i would like to share with all of you. in drag racing, it seems Imports always have a lot higher MPH's than Domestics running the same ET's. this is a sign of how much power they are making, and proof of how efficiantly those little engines are running.

but my thought was this: if domestics need less mph to get the job done in the same amount of time, in that sense, could you then claim that domestics are more efficiant drag racers?

discuss....

[Scott]

Domestics make more torque
Torque=wins races
Horsepower=wins arguments
and I do believe with that low end torque it makes them more efficient, to me the most efficient/fastest way down the drag strip is to be fast in the 60' and 330' foot mark, thats where imports seem to be hurting, kinda strange since they are "generally" awd. just my .02$

[slobalt]

As a spectator in all this, my uneducated guess would be this. The car with the higher trap speed has a gradual torque curve and higher RPMs. The car with the same ET and lower trap has the flatter torque curve and lower RPMs.

Have I learned anything or am I still blowin' smoke? :)

[69gt4speed]

I have a theory and it basically goes like this, I'll use my car. 11.75 @ 127 surely on first glance that doesn't make sense. However if you look at the slip it has poor 60ft 2.1 and in fact it isn't all that great in the 1/8 speed wise 96mph. However it gained 11 mph from 1/8 to 1/4. A 2.1 60ft is crap so we can say the front heavy mtr w irs sucks spinning dr tires. Same situation in a awd all the weight is mostly up front. On the track awd doesn't have much more traction than the street, in other words can't take advantage of prepped surface. Irs sucks again, then to top it off the powerband is narrow very easy to lose a few tenths without exact rpm shifting.
A auto always traps lower also vs a stick with same et. At topend the air drags the car down, the engine is loaded more at 1/1 ratio. The converter slips more. Why imo a auto will dynojet less hp vs a stick yet can and does do a better et in the 1/4 w built tranny.

I never pulled better than 1.8's on drag radials yrs past. You hardly ever hear of 1.5's on a 03 it takes lots of front end weight reduction w the irs. Solid rear end cars can and do better same exact 03. On the street not much difference, in fact some say irs is better following the road surface which isn't smooth like the track. Sorry for the long post but it pisses me off not to be able to do even a 3k drop off the line without slipping the crap out of it.

I set and thought this crap for yrs esp since the 03 vs awd's. Side by side always the awd had advantage on the street launch. At the track it went away. If it does that with my pos irs then more so with a solid rear more balanced car. Scott is right if traction is available, if not it hinders you.

[69gt4speed]

Btw my tq curve is flat as can be, pretty much all pd s/c do this. I'll post it later as I don't care who sees it.

[Scott]

Yeah thats true also, I was talking about more of the track prepped cars. I will say for example Trent "because I like to pick on him" and myself, both have track prepped cars. Mine has run 9.5 at 136-137 with a 1.34 60' with about 560 rwhp. and his car makes what 730 whp and runs the 1/4 at like 10.17 at 146. so mines got 170 less hp "approx" and goes .6 seconds quicker, sounds more efficient to me

[slow ride]

While a fat powerband and good torque sure don't hurt it's not the major contributing factor in the MPH difference. Some of the gigantic turbo imports might be hurt by the narrow powerband they produce and have to make up for it up top it's not as big of an issue in the moderate setups. Most imports run a manual which usually trap higher than an auto in the same type of car anyway. While the auto setup sucks more power it still gets the job done quicker due to the shifting speed and always being on the throttle. The auto transmission world for the imports is not nearly as evolved or buildable as the domestic cars so they run the manuals most of the time. By the time you make enough power to go fast you have to take it easy on the launches and shifts to keep the weeker stock gearbox, axle's, rear, tcase, etc together. Turbo lag between shifts can also slow a larger turbo car down between shifts requiring a mucher higher peak power to match the et's of a auto domestic car.

Some import car are starting to get built up parts for the factory automatic and the et's they put down are much more in line with what Scott was talking about. These autos are still no where near as solid as say a turbo 400, but they do work and save some of the other driveline parts. Another thing import cars do a lot is remove large amounts of weight as it helps a ton with less driveline failure and naturally imporves et's. From 11's down it's a chore to row the gears in any car import or domestic.

[Scott]

http://bbs.hardcore50.com/vbulletin/sho ... hp?t=40273 (http://bbs.hardcore50.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=40273)

Theres a good example of a NA domestic with a stick shift running fairly well. If them imports could launch like that they might have a chance..

[slow ride]

This guys kind of a freak driver, but this evo is on the stock turbo.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BR-fyXH7RIU

Vette's tend to need a little more mph also since the drivetrain is weaker than a solid rear end. It the vette world and auto is essential to the longevity of the rest of the drivetrain. I know this first hand now also :vom:

[Jappbox]

well its more about auto vs stick car, and gear ratios then power. in a DSM the lower your 60ft's go your MPH dont really change. so scott picking on trents 10.1@146 against your 136mph 9.5 run is not fair, your went 1.34 and trents was 1.7x thats .4 that would be low low 9's if trent cut a 1.34. So most of it is in the 60ft. Its all about how your car is set up, I just watched a evo go 10.51@128 with a 1.49 60ft.

[DustinsDuster]

i think the point is, imports dont pull the 60's, and have to make more HP to make up for it.

[Jappbox]

its not that they cant pull the 60's its just harder and remember imports have not been around that long like carb v8's have. alot of people dont get out of iowa very much, shit go to 1 nopi event and you will respect hondas. i wouldnt think you could get a FWD honda to go 7's, and alot go 8's and seems like every one that went down the track wasent slower than 10's. Iowa is not the place to see fast and good 60ft imports. curt brown holds the DSM 60ft record with a 1.2x and can take a 16g talon in to the low 10's on motor. So its easyer to get a domestic to pull 1.5's even 1.4's alot again has to do with shifting, i want to see scott jump in a 5 speed and pull anything better than a 1.5. i pulled mid 1.5's 2 years ago :)

[DustinsDuster]

see, this is the thing that pisses me off; imports are like crutches. if the import in an argument is losing, all of this stuff comes up like "well, an import hasd a tiny little motor", or "imports havent been around as long as domestics". but if the import is winning, the same excuses are used; "the import beat the domestic with its tiny little motor", and "imports have caught domestics without near as much time being around". if youre gonna step up to the plate, dont lean on crutches.

sorry for the rant, im a bit drunk

[slow ride]

I don't see why you can only like one and not the other. Cars are like flavors, each one good in a different way. Just because I switched to my vette doesn't mean I hate dsm's/imports. I just wanted the v8 response and sound with platform that can handle and a car that looks good.

I don't really like FWD anything, but it can be made fast. AWD is a blast since you can run performance street tires and still launch well on the street even in the rain. You can feel all the power you are making in the lower gears instead of spinning all the time. Don't get me wrong, sliding sideways through the corners is a blast, but the lack of strightline traction on the street gets old too.

[s13kid]

Im not much into drag racing but plenty of 240 owners do it and seem to do fine in the 60ft.

these are the top 5 from drag240sx.com

Rank 1/4 Mile 1/8 Mile 60' Car Driver Power Adder
1 9.150@157 6.000@125 1.58 S14 Jason Herrera PT74
2 9.152@157 5.964@122 1.44 S14 Ivan Phipps GT42R 94 / 150 SHOT SPOOL
3 9.220@155 6.000@122 1.38 S14 Mark Mazurowski GREDDY T88
4 9.690@144 1.43 S14 Johan Eriksson GT42R-BB 102MM 1.15 A/R NO NOS
5 10.340@138 1.49 S13 Jason Greenawalt-Hybridynamics GT35R .82 STOCK BLOCK


edit* sorry for shitty columns. but anyway, 60ft times between 1.4 and 1.6 Mph between 140 and 160. I should mention that the only one im positive is a 4 cyl is Ivan Phipps but im assuming the others are KA or Sr20

[69gt4speed]

Don't get me wrong, sliding sideways through the corners is a blast, but the lack of strightline traction on the street gets old too.

I hear ya ticks me off. A 240sx is rwd with probably like a 50/50 f/r distribution, quite unlike a awd or take my 03. A viper does ok w 51/49 too. And 240x's probably auto's. Till it is explained 100% I'll say its the turbo w stick and the weight distribution and the irs. Happens on turbo stick 03's all the time. Lil mtr turbo, bad f/r and irs though rwd. Ya I hear ya Dustin excuses are out but to analyze what is going on is ok, the solid rear rwd with 50/50 same weight does better launches with traction. However if those awd start beefing up the rear and run big tires hard to say. They (dsm) will never get a good cheap auto to match the turbo power so hard to say. They got that heavy azz gt 500, bad f/r, off the ground to run 9's w a stick though. So figure a way to go solid rwd that way the front won't unload the traction. We know when front is up a lil all the weight is in back, a awd can never do that. Best 60's are right on verge of front lifting or lifting a small amount.

[DustinsDuster]

I don't see why you can only like one and not the other. Cars are like flavors, each one good in a different way. Just because I switched to my vette doesn't mean I hate dsm's/imports. I just wanted the v8 response and sound with platform that can handle and a car that looks good.

I don't really like FWD anything, but it can be made fast. AWD is a blast since you can run performance street tires and still launch well on the street even in the rain. You can feel all the power you are making in the lower gears instead of spinning all the time. Don't get me wrong, sliding sideways through the corners is a blast, but the lack of strightline traction on the street gets old too.

i dont hate imports, i hate the way some kids talk about them. its like some kids feel like they have something to prove, and expect more because theyre trying to go fast with a slower platform to start with. just gets frustrating

[Scott]

Jesse, give me some seat time in one of those and you might be surprised, I have raced 5 speeds on the street and strip for a long time, and before that it was motorcycles, Im not saying I can just jump in and pull a better 60' than you can, but I wouldnt say that Im not capable of it. and yeah Im kinda with Dustin on that one too, the domestic is almost always expected to win, and if it doesnt then its a big deal that it got beat by an import, but if a domestic beats a import its no big deal at all, to each his own I guess. Those imports do make alot of high rpm power but like everyone has said so far its all about the 60' which is where "generally" the imports are lacking, even track prepped cars like trent's..

[Rollin on Dubs]

i want to see scott jump in a 5 speed and pull anything better than a 1.5. i pulled mid 1.5's 2 years ago :)


Give me a break, Driving a stick is not tough especially if you have alot of seat time in the car, Jessie when your banging gears with the front wheels off the ground and tripping the 60' beams (at 1.3's to boot) with the rear tires. Then you will get my applause, (because domestic guys have been doing it for years!)

[DustinsDuster]

i think this topic got way off the effeiciancy subject. what is a more efficiant car for drag racing? one that needs 600hp and 125mph to run low 10s, or a car that needs 900hp and 145mph to run low 10's?

[slow ride]

[quote="slow ride";p="130766":6d890]I don't see why you can only like one and not the other. Cars are like flavors, each one good in a different way. Just because I switched to my vette doesn't mean I hate dsm's/imports. I just wanted the v8 response and sound with platform that can handle and a car that looks good.

I don't really like FWD anything, but it can be made fast. AWD is a blast since you can run performance street tires and still launch well on the street even in the rain. You can feel all the power you are making in the lower gears instead of spinning all the time. Don't get me wrong, sliding sideways through the corners is a blast, but the lack of strightline traction on the street gets old too.

i dont hate imports, i hate the way some kids talk about them. its like some kids feel like they have something to prove, and expect more because theyre trying to go fast with a slower platform to start with. just gets frustrating[/quote:6d890]

Well they are just dumb kids and there opinion doesn't matter anyway right. What bothers me is I know my shit on both sides of the fence and each side has tards following along.

[slow ride]

Not that I'm for either side, but the car that traps 145 pulls a hell of a lot harder than a car trapping 125. In my eyes the faster car is going to scare the shit out of me say driving around the streets. Sure it can't et as well, but I don't live life a 1/4 mile at a time.

Yes, I would agree the domestic powertrains (engine, transmission and rearends) will run faster for the mph than a stick import. Think of running 9's in a f body with the stock 10 bolt. Not going to happen especially in a manual car, but your just an upgrade away. Most things like that are not offered in a independant suspension setup like most if not all imports have.

Here is a good example of a import engine with a powerglide and 12 bolt. Not to bad et vs. mph, but it could be better.

http://buschurracing.com/racing-conquest.htm

[Scott]

that conquest is pretty sweet, them 4g63's can make some power thats for sure. Since so many people love them engines and tuning them and stuff I dont see why more people dont throw a auto trans behind them with a solid rear axle like that. That would make a good sleeper there, imagine a eclipse with a PG,trans brake and a 6500+ stall, that would be pretty sweet IMO

[DustinsDuster]

i have seen that car before, and i dig it. always did like those Starions/Conquests....StarQuests...

[69gt4speed]

Well compare the awd orange car to the rwd conquest. .15 et and 11 mph rwd vs awd. tells me the rwd gets better traction on the track launch w less hp. So it isn't really import or domestic it is the platform. I grant you a fox body or a duster is a pretty good platform w some work. Get 50/50 f/r or better, suspension, a auto, solid rear to hold. Those 4 cyl turbo stangs work like a v8, huber or John blair. Way back tv tommy ivo tried a 4 engine awd dragster that didn't work. Not as good as his 2 engine rwd with then best tires they had.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fMC2rx7q ... ed&search= (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fMC2rx7qq7E&mode=related&search=)

[Domestic Disturbance]

Yes, I would agree the domestic powertrains (engine, transmission and rearends) will run faster for the mph than a stick import. Think of running 9's in a f body with the stock 10 bolt. Not going to happen especially in a manual car, but your just an upgrade away.

did we really have to bring those up.... 10 bolts boo :Hangman:

interesting topic tho. could the better 60's have to do with a generally higher amount of torque in domestics as well as a RWD platform? together i see that being the 2 major factors that ultimately make it the better platform. not saying i dont like imports, just that ur gonna have better 60's and e/t more consistantly with those 2 factors without having to find a way to make up for them. it will be interesting in the next few years to c how much faster imports continue to get.

[DustinsDuster]

could the better 60's have to do with a generally higher amount of torque in domestics as well as a RWD platform? together i see that being the 2 major factors that ultimately make it the better platform.

that was pretty much my point, more or less directed at the argument Krustin is always pitching.