read this book and you will never go back to ford again

[AutoMods]

got this book a few weeks ago at barnes, pretty decent read. goes over major internal engine parts brands and the pros and cons and hp ratings and even lists their prices. better than some other auto books i've read. a lot more organized beats surfing the forums. might not provide an guru like slowride with much new ls information but i learned a lot.

I see the same author makes a forced induction for ls motors book. might have to check that out.

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSf3hxyygcj8Z46lJF1UxektD81_aBcw JNDAoeGCDxtKBhk6-SthGOnPbMN1Q

[sparkles]

You could read that book...

or do like I did and buy a Focus. That'll teach anybody.

[Deimos]

focus= one of the worst cars ever made next to Vw's

[snickerlicker]

Did that book explain why a built LSX makes less hp then a built mod motor? If so I bet it's a good read...

[sparkles]

No, that book would be in the fiction section.

[FiFdYnUtZ]

No, that book would be in the fiction section.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

[slow ride]

Aint got nuttin on my 2 valve crown vic WOOO WOOOO

[snickerlicker]

Haven't seen any LSX cars on this site making more power then Allgo's Cobra... And your redneck cousins LSX car that supposedly makes big hp in South Carolina doesn't count....

[Domestic Disturbance]

lol simple ricer math really. LSX makes less hp/cu, but $ per cu/in its much cheaper. like duh totally

[Domestic Disturbance]

btw this thread topic made my laugh till I coughed. Even when theres no snow gotta stir the pot during winter huh ryan?

[FiFdYnUtZ]

A majority of people don't have HALF the money in their cars allgo has into his cobra

[snickerlicker]

A majority of people don't have HALF the money in their cars allgo has into his cobra

But an LSX is so easy and cheap to make big HP with according to everyone here. Using what allgo has in his car really is a moot point, and an excuse at best. Carry on...

[FiFdYnUtZ]

Just saying...with that caliber of car its a moot point to say an lsx can't make the power the mod motor will..

[black88gt]

John Mihovetz. Accufab cougar.

I don't have a mod motor but those results speak for themselves. MUCH faster than the fastest LSx w/ stock block, stock crank, stock hydrualics, factory casting heads.

[AutoMods]

snickerlicker is right in that there isn't an ls motor running 8's in our top 30 list. but I would say the right person hasn't committed to it in our area yet. George is the only one who has gutted out 10.5 ls car. i'm not sure george's is even gutted out and it supposedly will be a lot faster next year.

but allgo's car is the fastest street car on our top 30 list, as far as trap speed goes. his is also the fastest manual. me and eddy b's ls motors are not too far behind as far as trap speed. so you could say the ls motors are doing well as far as street cars

[slow ride]

Everythings out the window on crazy build forced induction stuff. The car itself becomes so important at those max levels that it's hard to compare just the engines when looking at timeslips, etc. Just look at some of the import stuff out there. I'll never say ones better than the other out of respect for Scott :) , but it's hard to argue the bang for the buck hp and packaging advantages of a lsx, not to mention weight in a aluminum version.

I can go to the boneyard, buy a $300 5.3, hand port the heads , add a cam and make 400 at the crank for peanuts. Not enough, then add some boost and make decent power all using the factory factory pcm to tune like a stand alone. It's all about bang for the buck in my book.

Mod motor design does have the rpm advantage in most cases and the small bore + fat/stiff dohc heads seem to deal better with huge boost numbers just like imports with dohc heads using only 4 bolts. With forced induction the form of boost seems to limit the amount of power made and the engine is just along for the ride if it can keep up. The bigger motor will make more power under the curve and peak early where the smaller one will make the same, but at a higher rpm and use gearing to take advantage of it.

[FiFdYnUtZ]

So now we went from comparing all out cars to stock shortblocks again? Judas..

[slow ride]

Yea, it's going to be a long one. :)

[allgo]

If its so easy to build a bad ass fast one how come there isnt one around here?? last time I checked the highest HORSPOWER car ever made from the factory was a MOD MOTOR MUSTANG...deal with it or get a lane..lol

p.s. you can buy a brand new 4.6 block for $400

[Scott]

The only engine modification to my Cobra "if you can call it that" is 1 pulley and a cold air intake. The rest is petty bolt on stuff, canned tune and exhaust etc.. I havent ran it with sticky tires but it trapped 118mph easily, Id say thats pretty good for not even touching the engine. Like allgo said the mod motor parts are exremely cheap as far as blocks and heads are concerned and these parts are used on cars that run 6 seconds in the 1/4 mile, I cant say Im aware of any other stock block/heads making that much power

[allgo]

BOne stock motor heads cam only upgrade is the bigger whipple on a 04 cobra went the best of 9.04 at 150..ed has seen it in action, also thats on e-85...find me these awsome bone stock ls cars running this fast..

[slow ride]

Imports do it so.... 4 cylinder 4g63's, supra engines, etc. Most that do it are running dohc heads and there is no aftermarket for those really. The mod motors are usually built up more from the factory due to forced induction from the factory so that a huge plus for them. Fact is anything can make big power when done right.

Scott wrote ----Like allgo said the mod motor parts are exremely cheap as far as blocks and heads are concerned and these parts are used on cars that run 6 seconds in the 1/4 mile, I cant say Im aware of any other stock block/heads making that much power

[AutoMods]

this guy has a stock bottom end 5.3 ls aluminum junkyard motor . i don't remember what cam or heads he's running, chances are stock heads with zo6 cam. he put his car together fast and on a budget. look 'skinnies' up on norotors.com and ls1tech. lots of ls guys running for stock block records are using the zo6 cam and stock heads . you can complain about the cam swap but the zo6 cam is like $75 and takes a few hours to swap, no biggy.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LgLzYfCkA34

New best is 8.65 @ 167.9, with a mild 1.44 60ft as I had to let off completely about 20ft out as the car went right. I've since had the chassis shop square up everything for me, have been 5.53 at 123 on the brakes in the 1/8th(5.70 at 131 in the 1/8th on my 8.65 pass) with a mild 1.39 60ft, next pass went 1.33 60ft still leaving soft...then broke the glide


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kAIce--rrdU&feature=player_embedded

http://ls1tech.com/forums/forced-induction/1463138-full-weight-8-stock-short-block.html

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/hs008.ash2/33782_1684501270479_1176058744_31985832_3225787_n. jpg

[allgo]

I m not talking about cross breeding....does he work for a asphalt company to with those steamrollers..but still was bone stock either..

[Scott]

A lightweight back halfed car running 8.6's isnt too impressive to me. Either motor can be built cheap, if you want to make alot of power with a mod motor you dont need a book, because the factory already put it together all you gotta do is bolt little pieces on to the outside of it!!

Im not trying to put down a LS motor just defending the mod motor because in my mind its hands down the most impressive. The import 4g63 and 2jz motors can hold alot of power for a factory motor too, but they have a less than desirable powerband IMO

[snickerlicker]

^ well said!!! I agree. Here is a mod motor fast list, has a few members of this forum on it too!

Ford Modular ¼ mile ET Quick list:

1. John Mihovetz (Accufab) - 6.083 @ 236.84 - ( Mustang TUBE CHASSIS, 4V 4.6, LENCO – TWIN TURBO )
http://youtu.be/86uLwXstuWQ

2. John Mihovets (Accufab) - 6.31 @ 225

3. Steve Matusek – 6.47 @ 222 – 330ci – 2,565#s

4. MMR - 6.58 @ 211 - ( Mustang TUBE CHASSIS, 4V 5.4, Automatic – TWIN TURBO )

5. Gary Soulages - 6.711 @ 209.14 - 283ci 76mmTT – Truck - 5.20.2011 - http://youtu.be/oROLe_Ns590

6. MMR – 6.991 @ 205 - (Not a Chassis Car) - http://youtu.be/vYAVHiEKdYg

7. JR Granatelli - 7.27 @ 190.00 - ( MUSTANG TUBE CHASSIS 5.4 4V LENCO - TURBO )

8. Sandi Wold – 7.32 @ 192.87 – xdr car on a 29.5x10.5 tire - 4.6 ProMod Precision 91mm Turbo- Accufab powered – Mustang Powerglide - 11/5/11 - http://youtu.be/Rote9SbpUas

9. Jason Wilkerson - 7.49 @ 177 - 330ci TT - Truck

10. Andy Manson – 7.53 @ 184.85 - 4.6 325ci superchargerd combo – 275 DRs - Stock Suspension - http://youtu.be/zOvEnQh7NAQ -
http://www.vortechsuperchargers.com/...em.php?gik=556

11. Ronnie Diaz – 7.66 @ 178 - NMRA #6 - 11/5/11 - MIR WCT race - 1999 Mustang GT 4V

12. Orson Johnson - 7.713 @ 181.08, 4.6 single 85mm turbo, 99 Cobra convertible, 275 radial

13. Joey Bridge – 7.73 @ 186 - (5.4L - Single Turbo - 3200 lbs - Glide - 275's - stock suspension)

14. Dave Guy (viperred96gy) – 1.25 60 5.07 @ 147 7.73 @ 185 MIR WFC 11/5/11 3330 lbs, 4.6L 325", cast wheel Precision HP88/47 (old NMRA drag radial turbo), powerglide, Hoosier 275's

15. Manny (HPP Racing) – 7.78 @ 181 - ( 4.6 Stroker 1999 COBRA GLIDE – SINGLE 98MM TURBO )

16. Daniel Pechar– 7.80 @ 181 - Triangle Speed

17. Dana Cook - 7.85 @ 177.35 - MMR built TT - http://youtu.be/hcCmxgDONbc

18. Perry Santini - TOXIC281 – 7.89 @ 176 283ci Precision 81mm – 30psi

19. Evolution Performance - 7.89 @ 175 - TT 5.4 (Not a Chassis car) – http://youtu.be/5KMxv-lu_Wk

20. ModMont – Kurt Borton 7.905 @ 172.56 – 323" 3v F2 UNOFFICIAL RECORD - http://youtu.be/dvWIQcBmWbU

21. Tracy Cockman 7.91 @ 174. Stock Block, Crank, Cams, Cid.
You Tube


22. Eric Leeper – 7.93 @ 175 - 331ci TT – Truck

23. Andrew "Junker" Barrale 7.95 @ 174.3 - 4.6 F1-R 3375# - Mustang

24. Randy Haywood - 7.97 @ 188.00 - ( 4V 5.4 POWER GLIDE - TURBO )

25. Bridge Racing - 7.984 @ 175.96 - (4.6L - GT4788 - glide - Stock suspension) - http://youtu.be/pZgKK254I0E

26. John Kolivas – 7.99 @ 180 - http://youtu.be/ofiKSf0RYYE

27. Mark Luton - 8.02 @ 176 - 5.4 turbo Stock Suspension

28. MMR - 8.02 @ 176 - 5.4 single stock Suspension - http://youtu.be/4NHnU5Sj6nM

29. Johnny "Lightning" Wiker - 8.02 @ 169 - 358ci TT – Truck

30. V*** *****y – 8.17 @ 172 – 97 Cobra – 284ci – 88mm precision Turbo - Strange 8.8 3.55 – TH400 – Watch out for this one, it could be a lot faster. - http://www.musclemustangfastfords.co...dge/index.html - http://www.yellowbullet.com/forum/sh...=265324&page=8

31. Carl Tasca – 8.18 @ 167.74 - 1.27/60’ 2010CJ - http://youtu.be/4CxhzWhXc3U

32. Steven Biggs Millington – 8.086 @ 177.93 330ci Would like more information

33. Brian Tutten - 8.143 @ 176.36 330ci – Stock Crank - http://www.fordracingnation.com/inde...d=12&Itemid=30

34. Bart Tobener – 8.15 @ 170.58 – 336ci – 4v with V7 YSi-Trim (Krugan Performance)

35. Thea Zancanella- 8.19 @181 03 Cobra -5.4 - 98mm - 3450lb - 28x10.5 stock suspension

36. Joe Logan "Allgo" - 8.21 @ 176.77 – 04 Cobra – 281ci – V7 YSI - Auto – 3,200#s

37. Greg1320 (racers edge) - 8.24 @ 170 - http://youtu.be/u3NxV7d_OM4

38. Barry Burich – 8.29 @ ??? 283ci - Would like more Information

39. Steve Cooper - 8.30 @ 162 mph - (Accufab Engine, Whipple 3.4, Lightning)

40. Tim Palmer - 8.30 @ 162.00 - ( 1998 COBRA - TURBO ) - http://youtu.be/rDAFc-itHZI

41. Dave King - 8.32 @ 168 - ( 1997 COBRA POWER GLIDE - F2M )

42. ninesecsnake - 8.34 @ 170 – 93 Fox Twins - on 275s - http://youtu.be/ctC09oejA3k

43. Jack Pedro 8.369 @ 168.96 - 4V Turbo - http://youtu.be/vKoLIdIej9Q

44. Jason Starck - 8.36 @ 168 284" 4v gt47-88, 275 drag radial

45. Mike Eames blownstang01 - 8.39 @ 166 - http://youtu.be/VEyXJD-zC8I

46. Vinny Barber - 8.445 @ 164.23 - 302ci 3v – 88mm Turbo - http://youtu.be/WCbSSHCmGuY - http://www.modulardepot.com/barber2009web/index.html

47. Robert Fortin - 8.46 @ 165 - JPC Built Twin 67 mm 3600#s 3v
You Tube


48. Roy Hill - 8.47 @ 161 - Ford Racing 2010 Cobra Jet EngineJDM Engineering - http://youtu.be/BRWPxW6jbj4

49. Randy Hopkins - 8.476 @ 159.25 – 2010CJ- 330ci - Whipple 4.0 - http://youtu.be/paRiaFAoMD0

50. Chris Crown - 8.47 @ 160.00 - ( 2000 GT PG - TURBO ) – http://www.musclemustangfastfords.co..._gt/index.html

51. Justin Burcham – 8.48 @ 165 - 322ci 3 Valve Mustang 3605#s -
You Tube


52. Bob Cook - 01 – 8.48 @ 162 – 302ci – 4v with V7 YSi –Trim - http://youtu.be/VCbrIcsLVeM

53. Tim Oswalt – 8.49 @ 161.98 - 4.6 Bridge Racing – Twin 62mm turbos 25psi – 3,500#s – Far Lane - http://youtu.be/a523qkaS4yw

54. Dominic Gabriel – 8.50 @ 170 – 298ci Livernois Stroker 4V in a Fox Body

55. Eddie Rios - 8.501 @163.8 - Single GT47-80, TH400, 2000 mustang GT 281" 4V

56. Jason Borum - 8.52 @ 162 – 281 – 4v - Twin 67mm Trubos Fox Body Coupe

57. NV2L8ULUZ – 8.52 @ 158.61 Procharger F1c

58. Frank Paolino – 8.55 @ 160.00 - 2010 CJ 5.4 KB 3.6LC – Drag Radials

59. Bob Trinanes - 8.56 @ 170.00 - ( COBRA - PAXTON, COG DRIVE, HOGAN INTAKE, SP )

60. Aaron Archer - 8.57 @ 160.00 - ( 2003 COBRA C4 - BLOWER )

61. Mike Rousch – 8.58 @ 161.73 – 98 Cobra – 281ci - Vortec YSI non-intercooled -
You Tube


62. Reggie Burnett - 8.60 @ 159

63. Daniel Akre - 8.60 @ 160 - (2v mmr engine)

64. Ferrarokid – 8.618 @ 162.29 – GT500 5.4 Auto – (3:41pm 6/16/11Atco Raceway) – http://youtu.be/pWpn4MqWuPg

65. Shawn Byrne - 8.62 @ 163 – Turbo 2 Valve 1999 GT

66. Frank Yee – 8.65 @ 158.89 03 – Cobra - http://youtu.be/xSjoi1Sn7sA

67. Joe Stewart - 8.70 @ 160.00 - 1998 COBRA - 4.6 4V - PAXTON, COG DRIVE, HCI LOWER, SP – 35psi – 3,200#s

68. Mike Matarazzo – 8.70 @ 158.57 – GT500 5.4 Compound Boost 76mm precision Turbo – Powerglide – 3.70 strange 9" - Don Walsh Jr. Driver -

69. JRS Blown Snake - 8.72 @ 154.04 - w/ 1.25, 60 foot / (Blower only. 3.4 Whipple)

70. Chris Escobar – 8.773 @ 156.60 281ci Would like more information

71. A.J. Tata - 8.76 @ 160! 04 Cobra, 302 C.I. 4 valve, 3600#, 62mm TT, AOD.-
You Tube


72. Terry - Turbo4VGT – 8.835 @ 154.27 – 03 vert - http://youtu.be/r-GIInzGFWE

73. Karls East Coast Speed shop GT500 – 8.82 @ 154.35 – KB LC3.6 - http://youtu.be/wC2bRiZpCjY

74. Fastlane Inc – 8.84 @ 161.3 - http://youtu.be/1B30gaiGvcI

75. Jason Shaw - 8.85 @ 155

76. Chris Ciolek – 8.85 @ 156 2010 AMP Performance CJ

77. Turbo Cobra – Kris – 8.85 @ 155 - (GT4780) - http://youtu.be/Y75gK5qk7Ek

78. Anthony Bongiovanni – 8.85 @ 150.88 - 330ci – TVS – 08CJ -3,145#s W/D - http://youtu.be/dcE6RDHPI6g

79. Casey Brown – 8.87 @ 151 - 331ci – 2v - 67mm TT – 02 Lightning - Leaf Springs – Drag Radials - http://youtu.be/kOpgKIbGDig

80. Evolution - 8.89 @ 159.81 – Stock GT500 engine with Twin Turbos (08/09/08 Atco Racway) - http://youtu.be/mtuJ5cHDcPA

81. Evolution 2011 Mustang 5.0 - 8.89 @ 147.86 - http://youtu.be/D2z8exW96l8

82. SGS Automotive Performance 8.911 @ 149.31 – 4.6 2v – Vortec YSI S/C - http://youtu.be/-AypHoza2k8

83. Katelyn Peters - 8.922 @ 159.72 - 330ci - Aeromotive Cobra Jet Dragster - http://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCStory.asp?ID=205093

84. Shelby Mark – 8.92 @ 154.90 KB3.6 GT500 - 5.4 – Auto - 3,720#s – Las Vagas –1.35/60’

85. Chevykiller – 8.932 @ 153.59 – 322ci – TT24psi – TH400

86. Jims SVT – 8.935 @ 152.90 – 281ci .02 over - PT88-47 Turbo .96 – 1998 Cobra – TH400 - http://youtu.be/5Ki6tMfMXMc

87. Brandon Foley – 8.956 @ 154.00 - 03 Cobra - 4V – Convertible - http://youtu.be/uysnMn6UkC0

88. Buster "Mark Larson" – 8.95 @ 154.17 – 03 Cobra – Turbo – Auto 3,650#s Cedar Falls - http://youtu.be/isl-Ggtgrgo

89. Crusing2much - 8.978 @ 151.65 – 281ci - F1A Procharger 26psi - TH400

90. KB03cobra "Jan" – 8.98 @ 163.20 – Stroked – Turbo 3,210#s

91. Matt Smiths " rodfarva" – 8.981 @ 155 – 2010 Shelby GT500 4.0 Whipple - 10/02/2011 – http://youtu.be/nn8D5Ee9qUM

92. Evolution – 8.991 @ 155.56 – 07 Built Iron Block w KB 2.8 (12/07/09 Atco Raceway) - http://youtu.be/HpdLDTyp_sg

[black88gt]

Even those cars running 6s are on stock cubes. 6 seconds w/ ported factory heads, stock block, stock crank, dont know how you can argue against that. Fastest LSx is in the 7s IIRC?

[AutoMods]

my book club is not going as expected.

quick search on ls1tech found a couple guys running 6's
Casper 6.86@205 door car
Hardcore went 6.9X tube chassis

"steamrollers" .... thats pretty funny, i agree he has some huge tires there and they look funny on that small car, probably not necessary. I think there is a fox body ls1 10.5 car stock short block in the 8's also. although this rx7 guy has been playing around for not too long he thinks next year will be low 8's after the bugs are worked out. look at the 2nd video i posted above, you can see him let off on the launch when it swerves right

so in summary I can get a new 4.6 ford block for $400 and stock heads, cam, block crank and throw a lot of boost at it can run 7's ???

[snickerlicker]

so in summary I can get a new 4.6 ford block for $400 and stock heads, cam, block crank and throw a lot of boost at it can run 7's ???

Not necessarily, it just means you could go faster, and make more power then you could with an LSX..

[allgo]

Not necessarily, it just means you could go faster, and make more power then you could with an LSX..


Lol...

[stangvortech]

Not necessarily, it just means you could go faster, and make more power then you could with an LSX..

like button!

[slow ride]

umpossible!

[allgo]

my book club is not going as expected.

quick search on ls1tech found a couple guys running 6's
Casper 6.86@205 door car
Hardcore went 6.9X tube chassis

"steamrollers" .... thats pretty funny, i agree he has some huge tires there and they look funny on that small car, probably not necessary. I think there is a fox body ls1 10.5 car stock short block in the 8's also. although this rx7 guy has been playing around for not too long he thinks next year will be low 8's after the bugs are worked out. look at the 2nd video i posted above, you can see him let off on the launch when it swerves right

so in summary I can get a new 4.6 ford block for $400 and stock heads, cam, block crank and throw a lot of boost at it can run 7's ???



Dude those big steamers look stupid as hell..had to put a big tire under cause he new he wouldnt be able to get it to hook with a 10..

[AutoMods]

Dude those big steamers look stupid as hell..had to put a big tire under cause he new he wouldnt be able to get it to hook with a 10..

maybe he needs the wide tires, but maybe he don't, he tubbed it out from the start. i tried to find his build thread but I couldn't find it. if i recall, the guy built his car in like 3 months, hobby welds, tubbed it, all the work done by him and maybe a friend, not picky about looks but a serious budget car.

when i first seen his project get started and how quickly he was moving I did not take him serious and thought it was going to end up a hack job unfinished project. not sure if his build thread was lost in the old rx7 forum crash. nothing wrong if he choose to tub it from the start to not mess around with trying to spend extra money on having a perfect suspension setup .

skinnies is also on your guy's favorite forum http://www.yellowbullet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=417721

[AutoMods]

so I'm assuming these ford mod motors you guys are talking about that can run 7's stock long block are the 4 valve forged 03/04 cobra motors ?? or which ones from what years?

and what year/valve are these $400 mod motors and what can they handle?

[FiFdYnUtZ]

i guess i just look at it from more angles than a list of timeslips...the ls is easier to come by, easier to work on, cheaper, easier to tune, more conversions, more mixed combinations, more aftermarket combinations, simpler in design, lighter, and has door cars in the 6's...i guess if you guys have the money and are into fords, go for it..but when it comes down to it the LS series is dominant in many more aspects than just full power capability......and who gives a FUCK about stock block/crank/whatthefuckever, i will guarantee you can built an ls with a dragonslayer/callies/cryocoated crank, forged rods and pistons and all the bells and whistles for what a stock termi longblock would cost and it will hold a hell of a lot more power...

[Domestic Disturbance]

different strokes for different folks... but ford guys like butt pokes!

[FiFdYnUtZ]

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7150/6541022511_acc38856a2_b.jpg

[LT1Dan]

different strokes for different folks... but ford guys like butt pokes!


http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7150/6541022511_acc38856a2_b.jpg


Thread over. Go ahead and lock this one up, Ryan.

[snickerlicker]

i guess i just look at it from more angles than a list of timeslips...the ls is easier to come by, easier to work on, cheaper, easier to tune, more conversions, more mixed combinations, more aftermarket combinations, simpler in design, lighter, and has door cars in the 6's...i guess if you guys have the money and are into fords, go for it..but when it comes down to it the LS series is dominant in many more aspects than just full power capability......and who gives a FUCK about stock block/crank/whatthefuckever, i will guarantee you can built an ls with a dragonslayer/callies/cryocoated crank, forged rods and pistons and all the bells and whistles for what a stock termi longblock would cost and it will hold a hell of a lot more power...


Easier to tune?? Says who, LS1Tech?? See that's the problem with the LS series you have to put all that expensive crap in it for them to be worth a shit. The stock termi longblock it's already done for you from the factory..So the same thing can be said about the mullet loving F-body fan boi's, if you like spending $$ on better internals go for it...While your shit is at the machine shop the Ford guys will be at the track dooring ass. Deal with that!!

[FiFdYnUtZ]

you may be spending money on better internals but your still spending less....you dont need to be upset that ford had to built a DOHC v8 WITH A BLOWER to answer the a pushrod NA motor that gm engineered when ford still had its head up its ass with the sn95 cars..

[snickerlicker]

Sounds to me like your upset that GM finally put a Supercharger on a 6.2 LS $115,000 ZR1, and it STILL doesn't make as much HP as a smaller C.I. mod motor.... The 2003-2008 LS1tech excuse of "what if the LS had a S/C" didn't work out so well did it???...:)

[FiFdYnUtZ]

Easier to tune?? Says who, LS1Tech?? See that's the problem with the LS series you have to put all that expensive crap in it for them to be worth a shit. The stock termi longblock it's already done for you from the factory..So the same thing can be said about the mullet loving F-body fan boi's, if you like spending $$ on better internals go for it...While your shit is at the machine shop the Ford guys will be at the track dooring ass. Deal with that!!

much more powerful options for tuning the factory pcm, and a lot cheaper at that. LOTS of people making big power on the factory pcm's....and dont get me started on the IRS..

[FiFdYnUtZ]

Sounds to me like your upset that GM put a Supercharger on a 6.2L $115,000 ZR1 and it STILL doesn't make as much HP as a smaller C.I. mod motor.... The 2003-2008 LS1tech excuse of "what if the LS had a S/C" didn't work out so well did it???...:)

did you miss the zr1's powerplant over a year before that?

[snickerlicker]

much more powerful options for tuning the factory pcm, and a lot cheaper at that. LOTS of people making big power on the factory pcm's....and dont get me started on the IRS..

How many Cobras have you tuned? Joe's car went 8.7 on the stock ECM, I think that qualifies as big power. I'm curious as to what is so hard/expensive to tune on the Cobra computer? And don't get me started on the fragile rear ends that the Fbody's have. Don't you have a FORD rear in yours???

[Mike@Salkowski-Motorsport]

I personally like the bbfords. Here a stock iron headed,stock crank, stock block making over 1700hp with shitty turbos.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTulqQZ822k

[Mike@Salkowski-Motorsport]

the stock iron heads can flow well over 370cfm. Oh forgot to mention I purchase 4 complete motors for less then $400.

[Domestic Disturbance]

Sounds to me like your upset that GM finally put a Supercharger on a 6.2 LS $115,000 ZR1, and it STILL doesn't make as much HP as a smaller C.I. mod motor.... The 2003-2008 LS1tech excuse of "what if the LS had a S/C" didn't work out so well did it???...:)

actually if you look at the cam specs the ls9 has, it wasn't designed 100% HP numbers. Its supposed to be a super docile engine down low.

[snickerlicker]

actually if you look at the cam specs the ls9 has, it wasn't designed 100% HP numbers. Its supposed to be a super docile engine down low.

Actually that seems like a pretty weak excuse for it's HP shortcomings, but it is worth a laugh at least.

[slow ride]

So Ford takes the hp lead for one year and they dominate? If you look at average power the new 5.8l would not be on top. If we are talking factory power the ls9 has less heads and displacement than the ls7 since they didn't need them to make the numbers they did with the blower. Add in CNC ported heads like the LS7's and it's going to be way over 650 hp.

Power still comes down to cubic inches. As long as the heads flow (mod motor can't touch even the middle of the pack ls heads as far as flow numbers) and it can be set up to run high rpm (DOHC is better for this I understand and the ls would need to be solid roller), the larger engine will win in the end and have a better powerband. Problem is big chamber 4 bolt heads don't stay down well so thats a problem for ls engines.

All the fastest cars in that list are light tube cars for the most part with lenco trans and a million dollers in them. Heck fastest supra engine in prostock type car is high 5's and a mitsu in the hight 6's like 5 years ago so...... Most of the ls stuff isn't built into show pieces like those. They run turbo 400's, glides, etc and most are door slammers that weigh 3000lbs or more.

How do these NA mod motors do?

Crickets


Crickets

haha
At least both companys push each other to make better parts right:) Did I ever mention that I like how small block fords/mod motors sound vs ls stuff. See I'm not biased;)

[black88gt]

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7150/6541022511_acc38856a2_b.jpg

Funny those 2 won't race.

Hellion TT ftw

[black88gt]

my book club is not going as expected.

quick search on ls1tech found a couple guys running 6's
Casper 6.86@205 door car
Hardcore went 6.9X tube chassis


6.86 is a universe away from 6.0

Cubes on those cars? Probably close to double the mod motors that are running MUCH faster at 281/283 ci

[slow ride]

What the weight on those chassis cars? They are pro stock cars with a mod motor substuted. Bla bla, cubes on the mod motors is way more than the supra engine in the 5's Lets not get into the ricer math. If the engine could take the cubes you know damn sure ford would go there. Just like the LS could use some DOHC tech to maximize rpm without going solid roller, etc in a all out high rpm build. Everything has it's drawback.

[snickerlicker]

Since when does nitrous not count as a power adder on an LS motor? Because the majority of the fast ones either use nitrous, or turbos to go fast. Or in the the LS world only is that not considered a power adder?? There are plenty of N/A mod motors in the bottom 9's or quicker at 281-302 c.i. As to what the LS9 could've/should've used, just chalk that up to another GM failure... So what is the argument again???

Crickets....
Crickets...

[slow ride]

NA mod motors in the low 9's. Post some as I've never seen it. I give credit where it's due you know that. No nitrous now just motor.

[snickerlicker]

Micheal Tymensky (Modular Performance) - 9.36 @ 143.12 ( 2001 COBRA 4V 5.0 ) unfortunately he is no longer living(boating accident). There is a 2V in pure street that has gone 9.7@136. There is also a 2011-2012 5.0 that is in the 9's N/A. I can get more, but I'm busy chasing a 2 year old around the house!!!Really it all boils down to whatever floats your boat, and the classic chevy/ford argument will never go away, and like you said it just makes for better parts for us all.

[slow ride]

Yea, just something to keep the forum traffic up :)

[stangvortech]

There is alot of people that do na mod motors lost of people in the 9's with them.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X1dP4B7DVcQ
There is nothing wrong at all with the irs coming from a guy with a 7.5 junk from the factory? Every nice car has a irs. vet, ford gt, gto, lambo, gtr, supra and so on.....
The ls motor is old technology that needs big cubs to make power. Lets see from the factory all this will be replaced by most people: heads, cam, rods, pistons, crank, block, intake.......

[black88gt]

Really it all boils down to whatever floats your boat, and the classic chevy/ford argument will never go away, and like you said it just makes for better parts for us all.

This. People who bash either side are ignorant. They can both be made to run well.

[AutoMods]

Lets see from the factory all this will be replaced by most people: heads, cam, rods, pistons, crank, block, intake.......

no. heads and intakes can go a long way forced induction, but the NA shooters do like to upgrade those. cranks are very strong 1000+hp. cam... sure its cheap and easy on ls motors. blocks are fine, aluminum blocks 800whp reliably above that some say they flex too much but you can find many at 1000whp. iron block is way stronger. Now factory pistons and rods, if you want to be safe, go forged after 600whp but again many people are higher.

Read my book and you find parts are cheap. set of 8 ls forged eagle rods $460 http://www.sparktecmotorsports.com/crs6125o3d2000.html . wiseco pistons $550

how much power can the non-forged mod motors handle reliably?

[sparkles]

The mod motor is old technology that needs big boost to make power. Lets see from the factory all this will be replaced by most people: blower, injectors, entire fuel system, ECM, rear end, trans parts, etc.
Werd


how much power can the non-forged mod motors handle reliably?

Define reliably. Does going really fast once before it puts a hole in a piston count?

[stangvortech]

no. heads and intakes can go a long way forced induction, but the NA shooters do like to upgrade those. cranks are very strong 1000+hp. cam... sure its cheap and easy on ls motors. blocks are fine, aluminum blocks 800whp reliably above that some say they flex too much but you can find many at 1000whp. iron block is way stronger. Now factory pistons and rods, if you want to be safe, go forged after 600whp but again many people are higher.

Read my book and you find parts are cheap. set of 8 ls forged eagle rods $460 http://www.sparktecmotorsports.com/crs6125o3d2000.html . wiseco pistons $550

how much power can the non-forged mod motors handle reliably?

yea, I was sayin na.

[stangvortech]

This. People who bash either side are ignorant. They can both be made to run well.

no one is saying eithor cant run well every one knows they both do. people are saying what is a better way to start.

[90blkbrd]

There is also a 2011-2012 5.0 that is in the 9's N/A.

I don't think the new 5.0 coyote is a mod-motor. Thus even Ford finally decided to dump the mod-motor and build a real motor from scratch. I don't think Ford has scratched the surface when it comes to the potential the new 5.0 has in it. I can't wait until they dump the 5.8 in the GT500 and use a coyote. I firmly believe the Coyote will FORCE GM to go DOHC.

Taking the best from the factory N/A mod motor vs the best from the factor LS...who wins?
Now put forced induction to the same motors...who wins?

It's really not fair in the comparison when one takes a "from the factory" forced induction motor and compares it to a N/A motor with forced induction added. Ford HAD to add forced induction to the 4.6 to make it a potent motor.

On a side note you can easily build a Ford Super Coupe supercharged 3.8 V6 into a 4.3 stroker motor with a turbo and have 860 rwhp for less... :) There is one in eastern Ohio running bone stock split port heads and intake from a Winstar minivan that is daily driven at 500 rwhp for over 20,000 miles. FYI both cars run a factory EEC and wiring harness and are easily tuned.

[black88gt]

O geez windstar intakes. You want to know about Windstar shit talk to John. Didn't you have a couple firsts w/ those? First w/ boost and first under stock hood?

And the 5.0 is built on the same line as the 4.6 and 5.4.

[90blkbrd]

And the 5.0 is built on the same line as the 4.6 and 5.4.

The 5.0 is built on the same line the 4.6 and 5.4 USED to be built on. I thought I read that Ford only retained the bore spacing from the mod motor they could cut down on retooling costs. That is the only carry over between them. Feel free to correct me as I am not a expert. :)

[sparkles]

With as much research as you usually do, I'll take your word for that.

[85XR7Project]

The main carry over from Mod motor to Coyote/Roadrunner 5.0 is the bellhousing pattern and 100mm bore spacing. Bores are completely different as well as stroke. Similarities on dimesions are deck height between the 4.6 and 5.0 (227mm) and con rod length (150.7mm). As far as the other things the intake is completely different, heads are completely different, also the 5.0 has piston squirters the 4.6 does not (iirc) although I do know the 5.4 GT500/GT engines do.

[black88gt]

The 5.0 is built on the same line the 4.6 and 5.4 USED to be built on. I thought I read that Ford only retained the bore spacing from the mod motor they could cut down on retooling costs. That is the only carry over between them. Feel free to correct me as I am not a expert. :)

Deck height is also the same, thats why they can be built w/ the same tooling.


"As its official name indicates, the new engine, which will remain exclusive to the Mustang in the company's current plans, displaces approximately 5.0 liters. The bore is 92.2 mm (3.629 inches) and the stroke 92.7 mm (3.649 inches), which works out to, give or take a decimal, 302 ci-another familiar figure in FoMoCo lore. The bore/stroke ratio is a tiny bit undersquare, you will note. The smallish bore was dictated by the narrow 100mm (3.937-inch) bore spacing the engine shares with the Ford modular engine family. But this engine is not a modular, Ford insists. More than 95 percent of its components are unique. The new 5.0L was designed to be built on the same production tools as the modular, sharing only what Ford calls the manufacturing footprint of the 4.6L V-8. So while the bore centers and deck height are the same as the 4.6L, the 5.0L is an all-new engine in Ford's estimation"

That is why the 5.8 was a cost effective improvement for the GT500. The increase in displacement is entirely from the use of spray on cylinder liners(from the 5.0) as opposed to traditional sleeves.

[Drifte]

The main carry over from Mod motor to Coyote/Roadrunner 5.0 is the bellhousing pattern and 100mm bore spacing. Bores are completely different as well as stroke. Similarities on dimesions are deck height between the 4.6 and 5.0 (227mm) and con rod length (150.7mm). As far as the other things the intake is completely different, heads are completely different, also the 5.0 has piston squirters the 4.6 does not (iirc) although I do know the 5.4 GT500/GT engines do.

That wasn't a copy and paste, was it now?

[black88gt]

"Gary Liimatta, base engine systems supervisor for Coyote, summed it up. "This program was done inexpensively compared to other comparable programs of a similar content. I've always liked to call it sort of a dividend program; we had facilities in place, we could make an all-new design, but basically run it down the same lines and same machine processes without making a major investment. And so when people say, 'How could Ford do this right now in this economy with the fuel CAFE and everything else?' It's because we had all these things in place. We could do that inexpensively and have it be good business, so we weren't being irresponsible, even though it was a lot of fun.""

[snickerlicker]

You know this thread has gone WAY off course when we start talking about the power potential of quite possibly the worst Ford engine ever, the 3.8....

[85XR7Project]

That wasn't a copy and paste, was it now?

No, actually I was looking at the little spreadsheet 5.0 Mustang had in their last issue and broke it down, but thanks for the lack of confidence in my ability to actually FIND REAL data unlike some select people.

[black88gt]

I just make shit up as I go. Seriously go back and research my posts. Out of thin air I tell you.

[stangvortech]

You know this thread has gone WAY off course when we start talking about the power potential of quite possibly the worst Ford engine ever, the 3.8....

dont hate the 3.8. lol

[85XR7Project]

Nasty head gasket eaters...

[Drifte]

No, actually I was looking at the little spreadsheet 5.0 Mustang had in their last issue and broke it down, but thanks for the lack of confidence in my ability to actually FIND REAL data unlike some select people.

Hand typed plaguerism? Not bad. lol

[allgo]

Wow my motor still has stock crank stock heads and has went 177mph with those junk ford stock parts..how many stock headed ls motors have been that fast???

[Drifte]

Wow my motor still has stock crank stock heads and has went 177mph with those junk ford stock parts..how many stock headed ls motors have been that fast???

lol, only like every c6 z06 produced. :) (198mph top speed)

[slow ride]

Don't know as there was never any reason to use forged parts till the c6z and zr1. Both those engines use a simi dry sump setup so it's not really the right crank to use if you are just building a drag car with a wet sump (extra long snout). Zr1 heads also use different/stronger material in the casting, but everything is so new I'm not sure if people use them or would bother since the aftermarket is flooded with inexpensive parts.

DOHC heads are very stiff and most don't have aftermarket options so people can and do make them work well. I think they are better for a big forced induction engine all things being the same (displacement, rev limit, etc) and due to there mamoth structure they will seal better. As gay as it might sound import guys have been making a crapton of power with these same stock parts for a long time. Not many have two banks of them though:) which "should" mean twice the power right ;) I think Brent Rau's old car was in the 1400whp range 2.0l on methanol.

I'm not trying to change anyones mind, but the best points of the ls motor is how small and light the engines are while having large displacement to produce a lot of power under the curve NA, nitrous or boosted. These monster cars setups on both sides basically take a air pump (engine) and push air/fuel through it and hold on for the ride. I like everything, but sometimes you just want a badass family truckster na engine and you need cubes to do much with it and make it have a "thick" powerband.

[allgo]

lol, only like every c6 z06 produced. :) (198mph top speed)

wow havent seen that in the 1/4 yet..

[snickerlicker]

Yep, those LS motors are so good that every C6 Z06 goes 177mph in the 1/4 mile straight out of the factory....Guess the one you own is the exception. lol!!

[APPLES355]

I know i havent been part of this conversation, but i am pretty sure the cobra couldnt do 177mph in the 1/4 right out of the factory either. how about you just say that both have a lot of potential to go fast its just how much your willing to spend and at the same time risk running a stock bottom end. no mechanical device lasts forever because it wasnt designed that way.

Then again i am another one of those people who havent gone 177mph in the 1/4 and i am fine with that because i dont have the money it takes to go that fast. maybe some day, but that will be awhile when i get a drag only car i can stick an auto in.

[AutoMods]

Is it just me or does it seem like more people supercharge mustangs where as ls motors u see more turbos. Is this because stangs need more torque or some other reason?

[Deimos]

I know i havent been part of this conversation, but i am pretty sure the cobra couldnt do 177mph in the 1/4 right out of the factory either. how about you just say that both have a lot of potential to go fast its just how much your willing to spend and at the same time risk running a stock bottom end. no mechanical device lasts forever because it wasnt designed that way.

Then again i am another one of those people who havent gone 177mph in the 1/4 and i am fine with that because i dont have the money it takes to go that fast. maybe some day, but that will be awhile when i get a drag only car i can stick an auto in.

If they took that advice you wouldnt have 9 pages of reading.

[allgo]

I know i havent been part of this conversation, but i am pretty sure the cobra couldnt do 177mph in the 1/4 right out of the factory either. how about you just say that both have a lot of potential to go fast its just how much your willing to spend and at the same time risk running a stock bottom end. no mechanical device lasts forever because it wasnt designed that way.

Then again i am another one of those people who havent gone 177mph in the 1/4 and i am fine with that because i dont have the money it takes to go that fast. maybe some day, but that will be awhile when i get a drag only car i can stick an auto in.

My point is stock heads and crank on my car went 177..same crank and heads that are on every stock cobra out there..is that easier for you to understand.lol

[APPLES355]

I understand completely about what you ran on stock parts and that is awesome. i was just catching him on wording i guess. the whole from the factory thing! i havent seen anyone personally that has ran that mph in the 1/4 with an stock bottom end LS motor, but i am sure they exist. all of the people that are running in the 10.5 class around here have my respect because the amount of knowledge and time you put in to get those cars to run consistantly deserves it not matter the setup your running.

[86svo9L]

I think that a lot of guys supercharge Mustangs due to the simplicity, ease and cost. Also having a PD supercharger does have the advantage of offsetting the displacement disadvantage we have by picking up a lot of low end torque. To be honest though after experiencing both worlds I would choose turbo any day of the week over supercharger.

[85XR7Project]

Idk I've seen a majority using turbos In the mustang mags in the last few years

[snickerlicker]

Is it just me or does it seem like more people supercharge mustangs where as ls motors u see more turbos. Is this because stangs need more torque or some other reason?

The people who live off of dyno #'s use the turbos, the supercharger guys like me like the simplicity of a supercharger, and the fact that they work so damn well. I've had 5 different cars with turbos, and hands down I would choose a supercharger every time. But like the LS/Mod motor debate it's whatever floats your boat.

[Domestic Disturbance]

Is it just me or does it seem like more people supercharge mustangs where as ls motors u see more turbos. Is this because stangs need more torque or some other reason?

Fitment and simplicity. The early LS cars (c5, 4th gen f body) really are not the roomiest cars for blower setups. I wouldn't say there are more or less turbos on f bodies vs stangs, but maybe that you are exposed to more cause there's less SC options out there.

Another cool idea to throw out there, the Gen V's will be coming soon. Probably first in the c7 vette. Estimated 5.5L, direct injection, at least 450hp. The DI helps a lot because of the increase in compression related to that, but I also think they are getting the square port heads to keep flow up on the smaller cu engines now. Probably from improved intake, vvt, etc. One could assume they'd be similar dimesion engines though, mean possibly more durable blocks. Its a long shot, yadda yadda.

Don't the new Coyote 5.0's come with provisions for DI, its just not out yet?

[black88gt]

Another cool idea to throw out there, the Gen V's will be coming soon. Probably first in the c7 vette. Estimated 5.5L, direct injection, at least 450hp. The DI helps a lot because of the increase in compression related to that, but I also think they are getting the square port heads to keep flow up on the smaller cu engines now. Probably from improved intake, vvt, etc. One could assume they'd be similar dimesion engines though, mean possibly more durable blocks. Its a long shot, yadda yadda.

Don't the new Coyote 5.0's come with provisions for DI, its just not out yet?

DI provisions are already cast into the heads yup. Interested to see how DI and boost play on the newer cars. You would think that detonation would be much less of an issue due to the fuel being added much later.

The VVT with boost is another thing that intrigues me. Before the Coyote came out Accufab was hoping to be able to use it to spool a larger turbo by changing the cam timing later in the RPMs. I think this could be a very interesting thing in the future. Not sure if they ever had any luck but being able to change cam timing mid pull could be interesting.

[slow ride]

Lots of DI boosted cars out on the market already. Audi, GM, BMW, Fords ecoboost, etc, etc. Most are smaller engines though. They all tend to fight intake port carbon buildup, but meth injection seems to help clean them up a little.

I know a lot of the Mitsu guys are messing with cam timing with good results. Lots of shit to play with and keep track of, but if used to it's full potential it will help out in the long run.

[BGjohnson]

Good thread guys!

Probably the first time I've seen a chevy vs Ford debate not go for the throat...yet ;)

Since it's a big thread I'm going to give my take on things, may it wash out in the sea of replies.

LS engine is a fantastic marvel of pushrod innovation. Lots of cubic inch choices over the years. Cam changes giving 80-110hp in some cases by not even removing the lifters! Wedged/deep set Mains for complete bottom end stability. Still keeping the bigger cubic inches and managing high 20's gas mileage. Stock heads flowing almost 300CFM ( if not over ), stock intakes/TBs to play with. The fact you can drop by the junk yard and pick up a 6 liter from a truck, plop it in , go drag racing next weekend. Good stock rods giving the ability to boost up to 500-600hp, compared to stock 4.6 with a max of 400-450.

Ford's had some great engines, the windsor family worked great for years. They took a leap of faith with the new mod motor design in 94 in the vics, moved it to mustangs where it got it's bad name,( 2v's suck, plastic intakes suck, vaginas come with 2v engines etc... ) . People forget the early 4v's though pushing 300hp in 96, not too shabby but still a torqueless wonder with oiling issues, powdered rods, and hyper pistons. The 2000 Cobra R making a small debut with 385 NA HP would hold the most power out of a mod motor until 2003. Finally Ford listened to their customers, Forged everything, better flowing heads, hand built engines, AND A BLOWER, WEEEE. Had it not been for the supercharger, I don't even think this thread would exist. Going from a stock 360ish to the tire, to 450RWHP+ with a pulley and a tune made God rethink about touching the LS engine first with his mighty appendage. ( obviously a joke, no affront to the Lord, although I might get zapped with lightning later )

Then began the real back and forth between Ford and chevy again. Both have come out with bigger and better since then. Always fun seeing people push the limits of what stock components can do. You can make anything fast with enough money and the knowledge of what stock stuff works the best. No use in picking sides and being offended, just go with what makes sense to you. That being said, blowers from the factory will always be easier to make more power faster and cheaper. We just need factory pony cars with turbos now :D

[Scott]

Allgo probably has the most powerful LS and mod motor powered cars than anyone involved with this coversation sitting in his garage and he seems to be more impressed with the mod motor... Just sayin

I love my 03 cobra and I dont see how it can be any simpler to make power from a factory engine than this thing, even my carburated nitrous engine is harder to tune than this. it hasnt even been on a dyno or had valve covers taken off it and I cant even put the pedal down to the floor till I shift into 3rd gear around 65 mph and sometimes that can still get hairy.

[snickerlicker]

^This!!!

[Clinical]

I don't see the big argument here.

They're both great platforms.
The main thing that means a lot to people like me who are more in favor of the LS is that I can get an LS car for 1/4 if not less the price of an 03/04 termi.
Sure I'd rather have an 03/04 cobra. I love them. I'm not saying one has more potential than the other.

Personally I'd rather spend under 5k on an LS1 car and mod it. If I ever have the spare money, I'll certainly go pick up a termi.

Then again we should all build hondas cause
No i havent made a camaro or mustang go fast, why? cuz theyre fuckin gay!!!!!

[85XR7Project]

No i havent made a camaro or mustang go fast, why? cuz theyre fuckin gay!!!!!

Touche.

[AutoMods]

About direct injection, I can vision it improving emissions and gas mileage. but would less time to cool the intake air hurt power?

Here is an interesting paragraph from this ls1 book

In numerous back-to-back, efi vs carburetor dyno tests conducted by several highly respected engine builders, a fuel-injection system rarely produces more power than a carburetor. Usually, it's the other way around, with the carb taking top power honors. That's because carburetors atomize fuel very high in the intake manifold, which increases charge density and the inertial ram effect of the incoming air/fuel charge. In fact, this is why Forumula One engines have their fuel injectors positioned at the top of the intake manifold runners.

[Scott]

About direct injection, I can vision it improving emissions and gas mileage. but would less time to cool the intake air hurt power?

Here is an interesting paragraph from this ls1 book

The "inertial ram effect" comment about the F-1 engines is very interesting, I always wondered if there was a reason other than cooling down the intake charge as to why they mounted the injectors way up there. Never really put much thought into it before. Speaking of charge cooling and atomization, think how effiecient a heavy nitrous carb'd engine can be in that respect

[Drifte]

Reminds me of the r6. 4 injectors in the intake manifold, and 4 in the air box directly above the ITB's.

[Aircooled]

*didn't realize this reached page 11, delete

[Aircooled]

I need to stay out of this damn thread, I'm going to get into some stupid ass argument here! *delete

[FiFdYnUtZ]

nobody left to argue with, unless you wanna battle out the proper way to "enter drift"

[AutoMods]

i thought 'edit's could only be made for like 5 minutes after the post. i'll have to look into that

[Deimos]

nobody left to argue with, unless you wanna battle out the proper way to "enter drift"

Hey you think the twins would have time for a twin turbo setup on an LS s10? I am serious. Can you ask if they got time this winter? Turbos for the class is 66 mm. Letme know what they say.

[FiFdYnUtZ]

i'll message you on facebook

[Deimos]

i'll message you on facebook

sounds good

[Domestic Disturbance]

No one left to argue with? Allgo still around here? I'm actually intrigued to know how much of his engine is stock. I am pretty ignorant to the HP capacities of those stock parts. It might have been mentioned previously already too, I just dont want to look.