Need some help, car won't start

[TbTalon94]

Lincoln LS w/ 02 Camaro LS1/t56 swap.

I was in the process of changing the aftermarket gauges
Autometer
-Tach
-Speedo
-Water temp
-fuel level

Swapped them out with just different style autometer gauges. Decided I knew how the wiring went and unplugged everything...went to put in the new gauges and realized stuff wasn't lining up how I wanted and I'd need to lengthen/shorten some wires so I decided not to run the new gauges yet and do the wiring later. Did my best to plug the old gauges back in and thought I had everything right.
Started the car up and the tach was working, speedo was at 0 obviously, gas gauge was WAY off so I obviously had that hooked up wrong, same with water temp.
It was running fine no stumble or anything, then all of a sudden shut off like I turned it off. Went to restart and wouldn't even engage the starter. Took the key out and went to restart and it just cranks, won't fire. I can't hear the fuel pump priming but I never really could hear it before. It cranks and cranks and cranks just won't fire. Sometimes it will crank and crank then just stop cranking like the signal is cut off.

Is there an MPI or fuel pump relay/fuse I could have blown with the fuel level gauge? That's the only thing i'm thinking. The Tach/Speedo have an IN signal so those shouldn't effect anything, also the water temp gauge is a stand-alone gauge with it's own sensor. Shouldn't effect the ecu.

[slo4cyl]

What is your battery voltage? If its to low the ecu might not allow starter action ect.

[TbTalon94]

Optima Red-Top, Volts were 13.9 when i tested it. Should be plenty to run the ecu. Remember the car was running and suddenly shut off, now just cranks and cranks. Won't fire or spudder or anything.

I don't THINK i can hear the fuel pump priming, but I never really payed attention before to see how loud it actually is.

[slo4cyl]

what year is the car?

[snickerlicker]

Do you have a fuel pressure gauge? Or one you can borrow? Is there a shrader valve on the fuel rail you can check to see if you have pressure at the rail? Should tell you right there if you have fuel or not.

[AutoMods]

look into the vats (vehicle anti-theft system) . most people deactivate it with a tune, but some people build an electronic circuit board or something like that iirc to get around the vats. Maybe you disturbed the vats. I believe vats will let the car turn over but it won't fire.

I believe the pcm grounds a wire that goes to the fuel pump relay. it does that to prime and it also disconnects the ground if you motor isn't turning over or running for safety reasons.

I'm not sure what would happen if you accidently sent +12v or +5v to a signal pcm wire by accident. not sure if it could hurt the pcm and cause weird problems. the tach and speedo signals come from the pcm, the pcm also knows water temp but I would guess your gauge gets water temp from its own sender.

I also have all the fittings and gauge if you want to borrow them to put a fuel gauge on the fuel rail to monitor fuel pressure. you could also rig the fuel pump to stay on all the time by just sending 12v to it with no relay.

[TbTalon94]

Don't have any way to read fuel pressure at the moment. I'm going to first see if the fuel pump even primes. Going to get to it and see what wire he ran the gauge from. I can access the ecu easily but I don't think looking in it will show if i harmed anything. The car cranks VERY easily, doesn't sputter or anything. Just cranks and doesn't smell like gas.

[Stg4raddo]

id start by unplugging the gauges. or at least the fuel level.

the vats would start then die once or twice then after you lock it out it will crank and no start. If you had a gm dash it would flash the red light/keysymbol while cranking. the system will time out after 20-60 mins give or take. then you can try again.

if you sent voltage down a pcm wire if your lucky it has some kind of diode protection so u cant force a voltage into it. worst case the pcm is dead.

find the fuel pump relay and look at pins 85/86 with a multimeter and u should beable to tell if ur getting a trigger sent from the pcm. or pull the fuel pump relay and jump 30 to 87 with a decent size wire and pump will run at all times.

if the factory fuel system was retained check the inertia switch in the passenger kick just make sure it hasnt poped for what ever reason.

[TbTalon94]

Well if that's how the Vats works, then that is definatly not it. I'll check those things Tyler and get back to everyone. Thanks for the help and keep them coming if you have any other ideas!

[slo4cyl]

Is the car a 02 as well? I'm thinking it sounds like a anti theft issue, that is all ran by the bcm I believe not the pcm. It's been a while since I've worked on anti theft problem and don't know much about the Ford system, but I can read into how they work on our diagnostic software if I know the year of the car.

[Stg4raddo]

the vats would be the GM system built into the PCM. the way i understand it the lS1 is run on a standalone harness so the factory Ford wiring should just be supplying 12v constant 12v ignition and a starter signal every thing else would be taken care of by the ls1 ecu so the ford system should be pretty much bypassed and not come into play with starting the engine. Ill make a call on lunch and confirm how the ford system works when u lock that out

[black88gt]

Doesnt VATS disable fuel and the starter? If this is the case and the starter switch and power are coming from the Ford portion(from above), cranking w/o fuel would be a likely issue wouldn't it?

[Drifte]

Hah, its Tyler!

And yea the LS1 should basically be stand alone on its ECU, and the ford chassis wiring is all separate. Will be interesting to see what the Ford system is doing, I can see it being an issue. I thought the HPTuners tune would have just shut off that Anti-theft junk, if you get your EFI-Live software soon you may be able to see the problem easily.

[FiFdYnUtZ]

Vats was the first thing that came to my mind...check the schrader valve on the rail for fuel..

[AutoMods]

pinnout http://www.ls2.com/boggs/torques/2002pcm.htm

[85XR7Project]

Ford anti theft usually kills the fuel pump if Im not mistaken. Im sure VATS does the same though.

[AutoMods]

I would lean on the gm vats is probably not the issue because its probably deactivated in the tune. but if the previous owner built his own vats bypass, I would look into it.

[Stg4raddo]

for the time period the gm system would be something along the lines of passlock III and the ford system would be PATs (passive anti theft). If for some reason teh swap was tied into the the ford PATs the car would not crank. The gm system would allow for a few attempts to start (would start run for a few sec then die) and then would lock out for 20-60 mins during this time you could crank the car over as long as you want.

I'm assuming the car is using a Ford ignition cylinder and hasnt some how been changed over to a GM key/cylinder.

So if we are looking at a ford Key and GM pcm the two systems would not tie together in any way.

My guess would be ur missing fuel or spark for some other reason other than a anti theft system

[slo4cyl]

I wouldn't throw the PATS system being the problem out the window. There is a module that communicates with the key located behind the steering column. You possibly forgot to plug something back in? It seems like you didn't do anything that would cause the issue your having other than somthing along these lines. Here is some good info I found to help you rule out the PATS system if its not your problem.

http://www.explorerforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=234975

[Stg4raddo]

PATs modual behind the steering column takes the data from the key confirms it and then would talk with the factory PCM Pats will not talk to the GM PCM in any way.

so as long as passkey has been removed/bypassed from the GM which like said above can been done with an aftermarket modual/removed from eprom or the simple way is finding the correct resistor value.

The GM pcm is going to take over control of the fuel pump/ignition so we can pretty much 100% eliminate the Pats part of the anit theft. passkey is still a possiblity but id say not likely

[TbTalon94]

Checked all the stuff. I have like no pressure in the fuel rail but it's been sitting all night. And now the car will not crank. Turn key and just nothing. No click nothing.

[Stg4raddo]

still looking like u have good battery voltage?. that fact its doesnt crank any more kinda throws off lots of ideas. the only part of the lincoln system thats left is the BCM right?

[TbTalon94]

Take that back. The car will crank when the lights are on!?? Still doesn't fire

[Stg4raddo]

neat.... still no pump prime?

[TbTalon94]

I can get the pump to turn on and stay on by plugging in the fuel lvl gauge wrong and turning the lights on. Why won't it crank with the lights off?

[slo4cyl]

Have you tried disconnecting the battery for 30 minutes or so? Worth a shot, Ive heard of it fixing a security light no start. If I was closer I would be curious to see if I could pull some codes or data from the bcm or whatever would be possible.

[Stg4raddo]

idk about the wont crank with the lights off unless now some how you are back feeding 12v from the illumnation circuit into something that needs to be powered up to start.

so u hook up the fuel level gauge and the pump turns on. thats gonna be an issue for sure. the fuel pump should not get power from the gauge. whats the model number of the gauge?

[slo4cyl]

Edit: just read the previous posts :Eyecrazy:

[Stg4raddo]

if you want to try the battery thing pull both terminals and touch both terminals together with them both removed from the batter this = no wait time and any codes are now clear.

[AutoMods]

I've had a corroded negative battery terminal on my durango only allow cranking when the lights were on.

[TbTalon94]

I'll try that. Also the car cranks when you remove the key from the ignition then put it back in. Also only cranks for 5 or so seconds then stops itself. It won't keep cranking.

[TbTalon94]

Reset battery had no effect. It cranks and cuts off cranking. No prime from the fuel pump.

[Stg4raddo]

So far weve got

battery voltage = 13v
Fuel pump prime with key on = NO (turns on with level gauge hooked up)
Crank/no start condition (cranks for 5 sec at a time )
GM PCM
lincoln/FORD BCM
lincoln/Ford ignition cylinder/key

cleared codes via battery reset method = no change

do you know any thing about the harness used for the swap or the flash on the computer? it has a cam/header so im guessing its been flashed

[TbTalon94]

It cranks without the headlights. Just have to take the key out then in. Ecu was from an 02 camaro, flashed with hptuners.

[Stg4raddo]

gonna say start with figuring out what happened when you re hooked up the fuel level gauge.

get the pump to prime and then make sure the injectors are firing. check for spark

[TbTalon94]

The wiring makes no sense. Nothing works. I'm lost period. Idk what to do

[Stg4raddo]

then maybe it would be a good idea to gut it down to the electrical basics and get it running again and make a harness for gauges etc.

digging into other peoples wiring can be a mess

[AutoMods]

I can get the pump to turn on and stay on by plugging in the fuel lvl gauge wrong and turning the lights on. Why won't it crank with the lights off?

thats odd. it would help if you told us if you are sending 12v to the fuel level sensor or if you are connecting it to ground. maybe if the fuel level sensor in the tank needs a +12v and if the previous owner grabbed the 12v from the fuel pump wire maybe that is how they are connected. somehow sending 12v or ground to some fuel level sensor wire up by the dash is kicking on the pump. doesn't seem seem safe as the fuel pump is going to draw a lot of amps and the fuel level sensor wire is probably a small gauge wire. make sure the previous owner used fuses on everything to make sure its safe.

[Stg4raddo]

i would imagine you can get the factory cluster semi working again as far as speedo,tach, fuel level

[AutoMods]

when i first got my swapped car running, I just hooked up ignition on +12v to the fuel pump relay so whenever the key was turned on the pump was on. the right way to do it is to go through the pcm which grounds the fuel pump relay for you to prime and shuts the pump off if the motor is not turning. hard to say which way the guy hooked yours up.

[Drifte]

I dont believe he has a stock cluster at all. Im not certain why the car would stop cranking, but it certainly sounds like the fuel pump power wire runs through the fuel level gauge. Some simple re-wiring will narrow it down.

Fuel pump re-wired and correctly.
fuel level gauge wiring checked/redone
Check power and ground wiring on temp gauge
check Speedo and tach power and ground wiring

Power and ground wires could all be tapped together on the gauges to be simple. Obviously make sure its fused.
In my experience with passlock coming back after an hour the vehicle may start right up. One issue was if it was an OEM key in the ignition it would screw up. Obviously at this part of your car its Ford, so Im not sure what to tell ya. Problem probably seems overwhelming, but is probably a really simple fix after some testing.

[TbTalon94]

I need a second hand here plain and simple. I'm not good at wiring, never have been just makes me frustrated and I start to destroy stuff.

[Stg4raddo]

shot u a message on facebook

[Stg4raddo]

couple hours and we could get the pump rewired, and the gauges im guessing as well as get rid of any nasty connectors/ splices

[TbTalon94]

I'd like to rewire it all but I need help. I've got the interior all tore apart, shit doesn't work and my
Phone has 6% battery. Fuck my fucking life.

[Stg4raddo]

on the bright side you didnt have to work today?. charge ur phone i could proly swing by for a little bit tomorrow after work and get an idea of whats going on. then i think im pretty free saturday.

[JacobS]

should have just left it alone....

[85XR7Project]

If it were the PATs system it WOULD start, it would cut the fuel immediately though. I doubt that's ur problem though. Was this the car with Autometer gauges? Sounds like the guy made a rats nest, how come you didn't label em?

[Drifte]

If it were the PATs system it WOULD start, it would cut the fuel immediately though. I doubt that's ur problem though. Was this the car with Autometer gauges? Sounds like the guy made a rats nest, how come you didn't label em?
lol

I know the fix. If you have two extra wires rung them to the fuel tank after you pull the pump/hanger/sending unit. Hang them in, run the other two to your battery. Connect positive negative, making sure to connect the right wire to positive ofcourse.

Oh yea, and make sure your insurance is active...

[Stg4raddo]

I know the fix. If you have two extra wires rung them to the fuel tank after you pull the pump/hanger/sending unit. Hang them in, run the other two to your battery. Connect positive negative, making sure to connect the right wire to positive ofcourse.

Oh yea, and make sure your insurance is active...

gotta use a spark plug i dont think two wires in the gas would catch on fire but maybe im crazy. remember if u can get the match into the bucket before it hits the fumes the match will go out

[Drifte]

gotta use a spark plug i dont think two wires in the gas would catch on fire but maybe im crazy. remember if u can get the match into the bucket before it hits the fumes the match will go out

I forgot, the leads at the tank are to be exposed at about 1/4" apart. Going for a clean spark. lol, but I like the saying.

[Ricky]

What all did you do to the car?

Retrace your steps and check fuses and wireing. Pluging new gauges in shouldnt have made this happen. It could be something really easy and simple too. I changed the throttle on my quad from a twist to a thumb throttle and my quad didnt start after i did that. It turned out that when i rode it into its parking spot it ran out of gas. I just needed gas to get her running again.

Not saying you dont have gas but it is most likly somthing very simple. I would check everything again before you start re wiring things.

[TbTalon94]

I have checked and rechecked the wiring. The gauges are hooked up correctly and they do not see 12v when the ignition is turned on. Thats the issue. Now why doesnt my ecu see 12v when the ignition is on? What relay would do that. Btw my phone is dead if anyone is trying to txt me.

[derek072887]

i didn't read everything but have you check your main fuse? or any fuses at all? sounds to me like you just popped a main fuse...

[harodavid]

where does the ecm ground at? i would think low voltage to be a grounding issue not a fuse/relay issue. did you check at all to see if you have spark?

[TbTalon94]

Well Ford conveniently doesn't label the fuse boxes, they just label them Fuse1, Fuse2, etc. and expect you to use your owners manual to figure out what fuse it is.
I found out that the ignition was not turning on when I turned the key, meaning anything do with the GM ecu was not seeing 12volts. That being said Andrew helped me out by getting the wiring/fuse diagrams and I found a single fuse out of the 50+ in the car that was blown in the far corner. Couldn't see it just by looking at it had to put it under the light to see the faint black mark at the corner. It was a 5amp fuse and was with the ignition cercuit.

So in the end, it's fixed and now I get to re-do all the wiring and kill myself for getting frustrated over a 5amp fuse.

[Stg4raddo]

hey trevor just saw you said your phone was dead sent you a text earlier about coming over. not sure how long your be working on it tonight or id be free to help tomorrow at like 5.

nvm just saw you got it.

[JustinS]

Well Ford conveniently doesn't label the fuse boxes, they just label them Fuse1, Fuse2, etc. and expect you to use your owners manual to figure out what fuse it is.
I found out that the ignition was not turning on when I turned the key, meaning anything do with the GM ecu was not seeing 12volts. That being said Andrew helped me out by getting the wiring/fuse diagrams and I found a single fuse out of the 50+ in the car that was blown in the far corner. Couldn't see it just by looking at it had to put it under the light to see the faint black mark at the corner. It was a 5amp fuse and was with the ignition cercuit.

So in the end, it's fixed and now I get to re-do all the wiring and kill myself for getting frustrated over a 5amp fuse.
Glad you got it worked out. Now, go drink a beer and relax before you kick the car's fenders in.

[DustinsDuster]

Well Ford conveniently doesn't label the fuse boxes, they just label them Fuse1, Fuse2, etc. and expect you to use your owners manual to figure out what fuse it is.
I found out that the ignition was not turning on when I turned the key, meaning anything do with the GM ecu was not seeing 12volts. That being said Andrew helped me out by getting the wiring/fuse diagrams and I found a single fuse out of the 50+ in the car that was blown in the far corner. Couldn't see it just by looking at it had to put it under the light to see the faint black mark at the corner. It was a 5amp fuse and was with the ignition cercuit.

So in the end, it's fixed and now I get to re-do all the wiring and kill myself for getting frustrated over a 5amp fuse.

really, would you feel any better if it were a 30amp fuse? i know wiring woes; the truck just about had me pulling my hair out. its such an awesome feeling when you fix it and it runs though!

[TbTalon94]

Yes, I appreciate everyones help! It's so nice to finally fix it and knowing it wasn't anything that was going to cost me a bunch. My new gauges went in nicely and look TEN times better. I love the change and it was well worth it! I'll post pictures when I get them.

[Drifte]

7hrs and a 5amp fuse. I gotta get you an award or something! jm, lets get some pics.

[Stg4raddo]

I asked u about fuses at like 930 l shit sucks but at leawt u figured it out. Let me know if u want help rewiring any thing

[TbTalon94]

I checked all the damn fuses. Problem is there is like 50 of them and they are all mini fuses. I could have skipped over one but I think it boiled down to the blowout being very minuscule. Hard to see. Either way it's much better now.

[Stg4raddo]

yea fuses suck. i always hate when they hide a fuse box some place other than the drivers dash, and under hood. I hate chasing down bad grounds even worse than fuses

[Drifte]

Yea, gotta test em. I forget what I was working on, probably the silver talon. But it came down to testing a fuse that appeared fine.

[Deimos]

power probe problem solved

[sparkles]

I've had MANY fuses be blown that appeared fine. Gotta use a meter.

[derek072887]

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10150246604877947&set=a.24268962946.36314.501752946&type=3

in a BMW 7 series... oh and its not listed in Mitchell or anything... its under the passenger floor....

[Stg4raddo]

power probe problem solved


agreed i was gonna have my power probe with me had trevor not figured it out



in a BMW 7 series... oh and its not listed in Mitchell or anything... its under the passenger floor....

Mitchell is bad when it comes to any thing euro

[96-eclipse-gst]

I haven't had a chance to check the wiring but I don't think most of the wiring is really gonna need to be re-done. I think this was mostly just a lack of tools. If he had a test light, he would have caught this in no time. The only thing I would be worried about is if they actually terminal'd the pcm wiring into the fuse box or if they cut and soldered corresponding wires. Whoever did the swap actually did a damn good job. Just little things here and there can be done to fix issues as they pop up. Like poor placement of the heater control valve which Trevor will be fixing.

[slo4cyl]

power probe problem solved

Power probe FTW!

[TbTalon94]

Old gauges:
http://i462.photobucket.com/albums/qq350/Pinknuts/IMAG0170.jpg


New Gauges:
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g49/Tbtalon94/f963d88a.jpg

[Drifte]

Suits the car so much better. Reminds me of the lexus ls300 gauges.

[sparkles]

There's just something wrong about the Chevy bowtie and the Lincoln symbol being that close.

[TbTalon94]

Not the chevy symbol, it says "Sport-Comp" with a II behind it.

Like this:
http://outlawspeedshop.com/shop/images/3688.jpg

[sparkles]

Ahh....you can see my confusion.

[Stg4raddo]

gauges look good. what did you mount them in? looks like some sort of plastic for the old ones

[TbTalon94]

Old ones was a peice of CF that he cut out. Brad has a huge sheet of ABS plastic so I made my own bezel that bolts to the stock cluster holder. Worked out pretty well and looks somewhat factory.

[Ricky]

how did it do today in the snow? :)

[TbTalon94]

The Bimer did great :)

[Ricky]

You should have drove the truck, not fair taking the wifes car. Arent you concerned about her safety? :)

[Ricky]

*edit
Their safety.....

[TbTalon94]

It's not HER car. It's only half technically by law....and until she takes over the payments I chose who gets to drive it.

[JustinS]

Good to see you wear the pants Trevor.

[Drifte]

It's not HER car. It's only half technically by law....and until she takes over the payments I chose who gets to drive it.
lol still. "their safety!"

[Krumm]

It's not HER car. It's only half technically by law....and until she takes over the payments I chose who gets to drive it.

i cant do that, my wife cant reach the peddles in my truck(s)