Mustang VS Corvette

[slow ride]

A vette's not a good 1/4 mile car no matter how you look at it. The stock c6Z would mess up that Mustang on the road course. Those PD blowers heat soak like a mutha and pull timing a lot form high IAT's at race tracks. Weight and balance are HUGE on a road course, but the mustang would be way better at the drag strip in terms of drivetrain strength, etc.

It's apples to oranges as usual.

[86svo9L]

The 94-95's had the same crappo E7 heads, to top it off they had a lower flowing intake design due to the lower hood line which is why HP levels dropped off by 10.

The best part about the new GT500 is that they will most likely be reliable and pull down decent fuel mileage which for alot of the older pushrod cars is unheard of at these power levels.

[c_mart_28]

Those PD blowers heat soak like a mutha and pull timing a lot form high IAT's at race tracks.

I know a thing or two about PD blowers and pulling timing up top. I bet I'm down ~100 whp by the end of a 1/4 mile pass due to it. Hence why my car doesn't MPH worth a darn.

Just thought I'd add my $.02 regarding your point.

[slow ride]

Understand what you are saying Casey and not pointing fingers, etc. I'd think e85 would tolerate quite a bit higher intake temps? I like the response of the PD blowers a lot and they would be fun as hell to drive on the street. No engine setup is perfect for every application. Lots of guys on corner carvers fight heat soak on pd blowers on a road race track. I'm pretty sure the ZR1 has some power derate on tracks under high ambient temps also.

[c_mart_28]

My situation is a little unique in that I've pullied my setup to see right at (or even a little above depending on max engine RPM) it's maximum blower RPM. 25 psi out of a 2.3 whipple is about the most it was ever designed to make. E85 does give some cooling effect and benefits but I was still seeing 140* plus IAT's on the dyno after only 1 pull on a 75* day.

Which is why I'm such a stickler about a full ice box for each pass and not hotlapping my car.

[slow ride]

Like you stated before, I'd think a small shot of nitrous would make a world of difference in your case.

[AutoMods]

Manual shootout 2009 I hit over 205 degrees intake temps through the traps 95 degrees out that year though. 2010 shootout was hot too, upper 80's, I hit 175 IAT's with a cold air intake and e85 added . But I've heard if I measure intake temps in the manifold instead of before the throttle body it will show lower iat's after the meth has had more time to cool.

Im curious as to how much more power I'd get with an fmic. Don't get me wrong , the meth works, but meth with intercooler would be best. I've done some pulls with the meth turned off and it gets ugly quick.

[snickerlicker]

What size nozzle do you run? Time to upgrade to dual nozzles?? Seems hot at your boost level..

[black88gt]

Seems that RPMs play a major factor in the life of a stock late model 302 block

[AutoMods]

What size nozzle do you run? Time to upgrade to dual nozzles?? Seems hot at your boost level..

If I recall, I'm running nozzles 10 and a 4. Dual nozzles setup. I haven't really tried to inject more yet. Mainly because my car doesn't ever knock as it is now. Also there is always a backup safety if my meth ever doesn't turn on then I will only fall back from 11:1 afr to about 12:1 afr the way it is now. Obviously the more you inject more you go lean if there is ever a problem. But I've never had it not work. Another safety I have is my tuning software I can set it to pull timing like mad if the temps ever go about xx amount.

These track temps get high because you screw around in line staging with no airflow, under hood temps are high , do a burnout, and then a full pass. The starting point was 131 degress at the launch and at the end of my pass it was 174. Thats really only a 43 degree increase. On the street its more like 110 degrees starting on a warm summer day and do a couple gear pull and end up at 140 or so.

This is my 10.5 second pass at 136mph this year. The data cursor is at the beginning of the pass.
3rd row, pink line and pink digits show IAT's
http://importevolution.com/temp/logs/run4_10-5.jpg

You will also notice just a hint of knock retard on the 3rd row, blue line during 1st gear, which is probably just false knock detection due to wheel hop.

Also on this graph you will notice I had a very lean issue develop in 3rd and 4th gear. 4th row , yellow line is commanded afr's (the desired afr) and the blue line "afr_plx2 afr" is the actual afr from the wideband reading. still no knock with very lean afr's.

[snickerlicker]

Yeah and like you said where the inlet temps are read can make a difference too. Looks like the meth is working properly.

[Scott]

Positive displacement blowers and nitrous FTW or just big displacement engine and nitrous LOL

[stangvortech]

A vette's not a good 1/4 mile car no matter how you look at it. The stock c6Z would mess up that Mustang on the road course. Those PD blowers heat soak like a mutha and pull timing a lot form high IAT's at race tracks. Weight and balance are HUGE on a road course, but the mustang would be way better at the drag strip in terms of drivetrain strength, etc.

It's apples to oranges as usual.

I dont agree with ya on about the road course. time will tell tough.

[slow ride]

On which part:) A stock c6z being faster or not being able to manage IAT's with a PD blower? I should state that I'm taking about real lapping 20-30 min and not some one lap time attack bullstine. Lightweight is very important to make all things live on the road course. Hell I'd take the mustang for sure if I was going to do a lot more drag racing. I'd think the BOSS could hold it's own against the GT500 on the road course.

[allgo]

Sorry but the Z will drive circles around the gt500..bet on it..I love both cars but still would rather have the Z..

[85XR7Project]

Well the new mustang is quite the nimble pony but I have to say a Z06 would own it on the twistys. Maybe not the boss 302 though

[allgo]

Well the new mustang is quite the nimble pony but I have to say a Z06 would own it on the twistys. Maybe not the boss 302 though

are you kidding?

[slow ride]

People always joke about corvette leaf springs, etc, but when you look at the suspension it's a very capable chassis. Full frame car (stiff), all aluminum suspension pieces, fully adjustable alignment settings, ability to fit steam roller size tires, light weight, etc. Hang out around a road course some time and you will see what a lot of the instructors drive or cars they like and corvette's are high on the list even next to cars costing 2,3,4 times the price. I'm not going to say the vette is as nice (quality wise) as some of the exotics, but just as a driving machine. It's a bang for the buck champ that skimps on some of the build quality to keep prices down and deliver one heck of a chassis. It's really the only American sports car made any more (notice I didn't say pony car).

Heck a c5z like mine, bone stock, would whoop up on a lot of todays current sports cars with nothing more than a good set of tires. I was ready to run over two older guys in bolt on c6z's at MAM with my car on Nitto 555r2's and they had Hoosier slicks so driver makes a big difference. When you read the magazines and watch top gear just remember not all cars are equiped with the best tires. Most corvette's had run flats which hurt published times vs cars on high end tires. Tires and driver make the car.

Ok, back to the GT500. It's a badazz ride fosho. I'll take gray with a flat black stripe please.

[85XR7Project]

are you kidding?

I wasn't at first about the boss till I looked at boss 302 laguna seca vs Z06 lap times at Mazda raceway Laguna Seca. Boss 302 1.40.21 vs Z06 1.34.11 its pretty clear the corvette is still much better in the handling department (I kinda figured but I'm a ford guy so...) weather or not it has leaf springs the corvette is pretty damn impressive. Maybe someday Ford will make a Vette competitor.

[slow ride]

They did, the Ford GT. WTF is with them not building these anymore? It sucks that they are so collectible that prices remain firm and I'll never own one. Lots of room for turbos in those :)

[85XR7Project]

Yeah I think the issue was the need to work with Saleen to produce those cars. I also heard about rear main seal probs as well on early production versions. Any way you look at it the GT was a pretty badass car. I can only imagine what it'd be like it Ford was to produce a GT-like car with a supercharged 5.0 Coyote/Roadrunner or 6.2 V8. Really I am dissapointed that Ford really hasn't refilled that niche, Dodge has the Viper and GM the Corvette and Ford doesn't do ANYTHING? just a letdown there.

[Domestic Disturbance]

Ya but in the other light, ford had the mustang and all billion different variants of that. Thus, the lugana seca and gt500.

[slow ride]

Viper is no more also.

[85XR7Project]

Viper lives on, its being worked out. Give it a short period of time and the new version should be announced

[allgo]

I wasn't at first about the boss till I looked at boss 302 laguna seca vs Z06 lap times at Mazda raceway Laguna Seca. Boss 302 1.40.21 vs Z06 1.34.11 its pretty clear the corvette is still much better in the handling department (I kinda figured but I'm a ford guy so...) weather or not it has leaf springs the corvette is pretty damn impressive. Maybe someday Ford will make a Vette competitor.

dude that is 6 seconds PER LAP it would get ugly real fast...

[black88gt]

Lol are you guys really comparing the a Mustang to a Z? Apples to assholes comparison. Vette > in just about every category except back seating space lol

Boss LS might be close on a small track but with any straights the Boss is going to be hurting.

Maybe Ford will bring back the Tbird as a Vette competitor LOL

[allgo]

Lol are you guys really comparing the a Mustang to a Z? Apples to assholes comparison. Vette > in just about every category except back seating space lol

Boss LS might be close on a small track but with any straights the Boss is going to be hurting.

Maybe Ford will bring back the Tbird as a Vette competitor LOL

LOL....2 different cars I know but seem people always like to throw the vette in the same ring as the stang..

[snickerlicker]

Sounds like this needs to settled on the back roads to Palo.... you know the shit is getting deep when this site starts comparing road course times...

[allgo]

Sounds like this needs to settled on the back roads to Palo.... you know the shit is getting deep when this site starts comparing road course times...

I agree...but dude brought it up I didnt, a stock mustang will never hang with a Z on the course..

[snickerlicker]

I agree...but dude brought it up I didnt, a stock mustang will never hang with a Z on the course..

Which course, the Palo one, or that other road course in Iowa......is that Justin Bieber song never say never song playing in the background?? lol

[slow ride]

What I don't understand is what makes it more macho to be faster on the drag strip than a road course? Do a track day some time and see how beat up you are the next day. It's not easy in Iowa since tracks are not close, but I've never seen anyone go and not have a blast. Your face will hurt from the shit eatin grin you will have for 20-30min at a time. I like both forms of racing, but try not to bias my opinions based on which "track" is for me.

[sparkles]

This is the reason I'm building this TA towards road racing this go around. I had a chance 3 years ago at MAM to drive a 96 Grand Sport and 98 GTS and it pretty much had me hooked on wanting to build a road car. I already had my 10 sec drag slip and really wanted to do something different. Sucks that the closest decent road coarse is in Omaha though, not to mention the issues they had with this year.

[allgo]

When have you ever had a 10 second drag strip pass..proof ? I guess I should say not in your current car..I dont know what other cars you have had..

[black88gt]

LOL....2 different cars I know but seem people always like to throw the vette in the same ring as the stang..

Wasn't directed at you, I think we're on the same page.

[snickerlicker]

What I don't understand is what makes it more macho to be faster on the drag strip than a road course? Do a track day some time and see how beat up you are the next day. It's not easy in Iowa since tracks are not close, but I've never seen anyone go and not have a blast. Your face will hurt from the shit eatin grin you will have for 20-30min at a time. I like both forms of racing, but try not to bias my opinions based on which "track" is for me.

I like them both too, but I'm just laughing at the fact that the post I started about the 2013 GT500, somehow turned into a Vette vs GT500 who is faster on a road course debate. Guess the GM people got upset that a Ford makes more HP then a top of the line ZR1 Vette makes??? I'd take the Vette too, but I have no $$$ for either.

[AutoMods]

Sounds like this needs to settled on the back roads to Palo

if you guys are going to race the back roads to palo. my money is on the 3rd gen camaro wins that race hands down. especially if gravel is involved.

[stangvortech]

I got the 2013 gt500 over the 2013 z. just sayin. I was talking one lap time vrs time. not the damn lemans! I built my car for a bit of everything any time you guys want to do a palo run im in. dont forget about the fr500c, 2000 cobra r. sure stock vrs stock but what about the $$$ in each ride I got the stang again. When you say vette I think old a fart never taking it over 3k ever. idk Im bias though I would never buy one just not a fan.

[allgo]

I ll drag you threw the corners John anytime you want..Did you get your car running yet?

[stangvortech]

yea, I'm sure you would. there are a few sick ones out there like yours. do you ever plan on taking it a auto x track or not? I know it is not your thing.

[allgo]

No, honestly no desire to auto cross it..whats up with your car

[stangvortech]

I got ya. Im having injector problems with the 105lbs and a mail order. Im just going to trailer it there so they can get tuning on it. It is 99% it will be out spring time.

[LT1Dan]

I got the 2013 gt500 over the 2013 z. just sayin. I was talking one lap time vrs time. not the damn lemans! I built my car for a bit of everything any time you guys want to do a palo run im in. dont forget about the fr500c, 2000 cobra r. sure stock vrs stock but what about the $$$ in each ride I got the stang again. When you say vette I think old a fart never taking it over 3k ever. idk Im bias though I would never buy one just not a fan.

Yeah, you're way biased. The Z's are built for road course and will rape on any Mustang you throw at them. Not saying that the GT500 isn't impressive but it can't touch a C6Z stock for stock around any road course.

[85XR7Project]

I already posted times around a track between the boss and the z, the z would have a 6 second advantage a lap. I really don't think there is a question of which handles better here. I love the stang but I think its out gunned here.

[snickerlicker]

This thread has turned into GT500 rape room...And nobody has even tested one.

[85XR7Project]

I have driven one, they are insane. I'm not saying they aren't sweet, just saying it isnt as proficient at handling as a vette Z06

[snickerlicker]

I have driven one, they are insane. I'm not saying they aren't sweet, just saying it isnt as proficient at handling as a vette Z06

You've driven a 2013 GT500 with more power, better brakes, better suspension then previous GT500's? Man, you must have friends in high places at Ford headquarters.....

[allgo]

I drove the 2020 shelby last night... it was sweet..lol

[allgo]

I got the 2013 gt500 over the 2013 z. just sayin. I was talking one lap time vrs time. not the damn lemans! I built my car for a bit of everything any time you guys want to do a palo run im in. dont forget about the fr500c, 2000 cobra r. sure stock vrs stock but what about the $$$ in each ride I got the stang again. When you say vette I think old a fart never taking it over 3k ever. idk Im bias though I would never buy one just not a fan.

John I didnt know they only raced one lap races at road america..lol

[slow ride]

We should make a new thread for this stuff and clean up this one. Someone do this as I'm at work:)

[black88gt]

You've driven a 2013 GT500 with more power, better brakes, better suspension then previous GT500's? Man, you must have friends in high places at Ford headquarters.....

lol right?

[85XR7Project]

You've driven a 2013 GT500 with more power, better brakes, better suspension then previous GT500's? Man, you must have friends in high places at Ford headquarters.....

Ahh taking me out of context, you're hilarious. I never said it was a 2013, I have driven a GT500 either way.

[snickerlicker]

Ahh taking me out of context, you're hilarious. I never said it was a 2013, I have driven a GT500 either way.

My point was if you haven't driven a new 2013 GT500, you can't compare it to an older model GT500's performance. That's like saying a C5Z is as good as performing car as a C6Z...unless it's Slow Rides!!:)

[slow ride]

Hey, lets keep the turd c5 jokes out of this one:) Really though C5's and C6's have very similar suspension and weight. Most of the performance gain is the power and tire size. Little things like sway bars, track width and wheelbase slightly differ also. Both cars can run huge tires (c5's are limited in back unless tubbed). Of course I'd rather have a steel grey c6z though, but I'm to darn cheap to buy anything newer.

That's like saying a C5Z is as good as performing car as a C6Z...unless it's Slow Rides!!:)[/QUOTE]

It's clear that Ford is making the right moves with the Mustang to improve the cars everywhere. I can't say the same for GM and the Camaro. They are all getting to damn fat though. That IRS in a Camaro is a problem at the 4000+ lb curb weight.

[stangvortech]

Yeah, you're way biased. The Z's are built for road course and will rape on any Mustang you throw at them. Not saying that the GT500 isn't impressive but it can't touch a C6Z stock for stock around any road course.


John I didnt know they only raced one lap races at road america..lol

lol come on guys. look who won the grand am cup series. THE FR500C!!!!!!!!!! the vettes and others could not hang. if I were to show up to a track to race no matter what kind of racing I would have a mustang built for the job. that is just me though. yes, Im bias I know.

[Drifte]

FR500c, available without a vin, at 125k.

[stangvortech]

haha yea, Im sure the vette and others is ready to run off the dealer lot with no $.

[Scott]

What I don't understand is what makes it more macho to be faster on the drag strip than a road course? Do a track day some time and see how beat up you are the next day. It's not easy in Iowa since tracks are not close, but I've never seen anyone go and not have a blast. Your face will hurt from the shit eatin grin you will have for 20-30min at a time. I like both forms of racing, but try not to bias my opinions based on which "track" is for me.

Sounds like you need to go circle track racing, now thats a serious rush!!

[Domestic Disturbance]

If we are talking built track cars, look whose won several gt1 and now gt2 series cups.

[black88gt]

Now that its a new thread just lock it because its dumb.

John is delusional.

[slow ride]

I've done chump car wheel to wheel racing. And yea it's a 24 hr race so I have to drive 2 hours at a time in a tin can porashe 914 next to cars that weigh 4000 lbs. Lets just say it's a little nerve racking:)

[slow ride]

Racing Factory entered cars is all sorts or weirdness. Nothing is left of the origional car. Cars that make too much power get restricted with plates, reduced displacement, etc and other slower cars get different engines or extra compression, etc. all trying to keep things close.

Back when Speedvision world challenge series was hot they were running m3's and NSX's with vortec superchargers next to vettes and vipers with restrictor plates and weight ballast. Hell even the biturbo S4's had k04 turbos, but had to run ballast if they won too much (which they did two years in a row)

Last test I remember reading with a gt500 was a old car and driver I had with race track results. All I remember is a base c6 putting a beating on the older gt500 and they also noted it was down on power after a lap or two from heat. I'm sure the new gt500 will be worlds better than the old one, BUT it still rides on the same chassis and only weighs a little less. It will be much faster, but don't expect the world. Look at the zr1 vs the z06, even with all that power advantage and weight disadvantage it doesn't really destroy the z06 on the track. It's usually only a 1-3 sec faster per lap.

[snickerlicker]

The newer 2011-2012 GT500's with the all aluminum motor handle much better,(suspension improvements too) and don't heat soak quite as bad. The performance Package has a 3.73:1 rear axle, Goodyear Eagle F1 SuperCar tires, 19-inch wheels in the front and 20-inch wheels rear. I will try to dig up the last test Car&Driver did on the road course comparison between makes but it was much quicker than the previous cast iron GT500 models. Not saying a Corvette beater, but better.

[slow ride]

Whats even funnier is that as we bring up road racing I'm thinking about putting turbos on my vette which will make it a little difficult to run at the track anymore due to heat. Nothing is ever fast enough in this damn hobby :)

[snickerlicker]

^ True!