hypothetical turbo build

[FiFdYnUtZ]

since i know how much this site thrives on turbo discussion i thought i would make a thread (just for discussions sake) for a theoretical turbo build on my car...just to see what it would take and what some of the members thoughts/opinions would be on what turbo, wg, etc to use.

the build would be based off of a set of reversed 6.0L truck manifolds that i have laying around (i would get them ceramic coated) and a mess of custom fab work done locally.
http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p173/xjjf1015x/Turbo%20Project/P1000425.jpg

The radiator will need to be stood up vertical for the front mounted turbo so a crossbrace will be put in place of the cut out support.
http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p173/xjjf1015x/Intercooler%20and%20Radiator/P1000336.jpg

The IC will be front mounted behind my licence plate and fog light area (i will take fog lights out and cut out behind the plate) and is HAS to be air to air, im not fucking with ice water..

http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p173/xjjf1015x/Intercooler%20and%20Radiator/DSC02291.jpg

and the exhaust would either be a fender exit or a 4in downpipe to a 3inch muffler'd exhaust dumping underneath
http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p173/xjjf1015x/Turbo%20Project/P1000440.jpg



NOW, on to the discussion part of this....i have been looking into a billet 76mm turbo so far, seems to spool nice and would be capable of the power i am looking for, turbosmart wastegates seem popular as well.....and possibly a tial Q bov

what i want:
something that will make high 600's whp on PUMP GAS with a very street raceable powerband...and a car that i wont have a million problems with ( i drive 275+ miles a weekend for a track trip) and i would like to see deep in the 700's on 110 or a mix....i need to stress the drive-ability of the car, i have always taken pride in owning a STREET CAR and i dont want to get caught up in something that NEEDS to be trailered...but i also can handle some trade offs, i already have a car with a huge stall, spool, and skinnies that i would drive anywhere...

my car has a 9inch with a 4.11 spool and 28in tire, what gear will i be looking at changing to?


the car would have a forged 347 with stock 317 heads and mls gaskets to drop compression as low as possible and it will keep the 233/237 .600/.600 cam that i have now (its on a 112 lsa, would this be too much overlap for boost?)
what compression should i be shooting for in your opinion?

what turbo, boost controller, wastegate, bov, compression, exhaust, etc do YOU guys think will fit into this?

also what major problems/issues could you see arising with this build?

i have been doing a lot of research lately and learning a lot, now i want to see what IAF has to say...

[Drifte]

Hmm Auto, high stall. BIG turbo. Ryan runs a Turbonetics T76 on his ls1, pretty responsive. Its been changed to 72mm compressor wheel now but that changed little. You could go a little larger (though anything over the t series 76mm costs a good bit more.).

Boost control, rely on the wastegate, and run a manual if you need more quickly.
Wastegate, Tial 44 works perfectly for Ryan. Precision 46mm wastegate is almost identical but slightly more compact, and no reliability issues have come up from Precision yet either.
BOV, Tial q is a good choice.

The f-body/ls1 guys will have better input on the rest, but gear it a bit taller. Turbo's likes the load.

Are you speed density or still run a MAF now?

[FiFdYnUtZ]

speed density, it would be fully dyno tuned at speed inc...i would have no problem going larger, just dont want something too crazy that i dont NEED

[stangvortech]

I would stick some money in the bottom end and the tranny. I would go 9.1 with e85 not sure if that is pump gas for you or not? I woudl get all tial stuff. I go with 3.55's gears.

[AutoMods]

I don't know, I might be worn out from the last two turbo threads.

t76 is a good size. 700whp is easy for any v8 turbo, you don't really need to spend extra money on billet or ball bearing or the latest and greatest model. but of course you can if you want to. my t56 and 4.10 gears is way too low of gearing, I'm moving to 3.55. But not sure about your auto and gearing.

learn how to tune because you don't want to be running back to the dyno every time you decide your ready to run a couple more pounds of boost. Or if you change injectors or fuel pressure, new cam, filter, colder air, different fuel etc etc. your expensive dyno tune will be thrown out the window once you change your car.

run meth injection, its very cheap high octane and very streetable. $250-$350 for the intial meth kit and then meth is only $3 per gallon from circle track suppliers and on top of that you mix it with 50% water, thats $1.50 a gallon. On top of that you only spray at WOT so it goes down very slow. Its not like e85 where you have to find stations. If your on a road trip just don't go WOT too much and your meth will last forever. I actually only burn up one gallon per 2 tanks of gas with a lot of WOT action. I use to use my meth for high octane but since I am on e85 now it just serves as a chemical intercooler for me and it does pretty well. I do not run an intercooler.

I like to tackle mods in small bunches and keep the car from being down too long. You could build your turbo setup, intercooler, fuel, tune etc and run the stock ls1 <600whp but your going to need meth or high octane with the 10:1 stock compression . Then forge the motor the following winter if you want to divide your project up. You could even skip the intercooler like me because I wanted the car running asap and never got around to doing an intercooler because it was running good without one.

I'm going to run 10:1 or 10.5:1 but I'm on e85.

I'd run your cam the way it is for simplicity since you already have it, there is a lot of discussion how the best NA cams make the best turbo cams in a good turbo setup (low backpressure).

[FiFdYnUtZ]

I would stick some money in the bottom end and the tranny. I would go 9.1 with e85 not sure if that is pump gas for you or not? I woudl get all tial stuff. I go with 3.55's gears.

It will be a forged 347 and I have a Performabuilt 4l60e now....no e85 for me, needs to run on 91 minimum. Depending on gasket size I think I can get it down to 8.5:1 with the 317 heads

[TbTalon94]

I'd go 9:1 compression and 76mm turbo would be great for response and good power. I'd stick with running an intercooler then add meth if you want/need more power on pump gas. E85 will suit you just fine if the motor can handle it.

I'd stick with all Tial stuff just to keep it simple however I've ran the 46mm precision gate and never had a problem with it. It is also a bit cheaper then the Tial, but it's completely up to you. Boost control I would do what Colton said. Run off the wastegate and if you want/need more boost throw in a manual controller. It's simple, effective and very reliable.

In all honesty I would get the turbo set-up completed, see how it runs then think about changing gearing, stall, cam, etc. how you see fit. No need to have to buy twice because it runs different then expected.

[FiFdYnUtZ]

Well it will certainly need taller gearing...4.11s are maxing out my auto in 3rd as it is...and ill be looking at picking up at least 15mph trap

[FiFdYnUtZ]

What are the thoughts on intercoolers? Will an ebay/cxracing do? Or is it better to spend money on a higher quality one?

[stangvortech]

no ebay/cx racing are good and will be fine. I would look for a procharger 3 core if it were me. I have ran two of them and loved them. It just depends on the demsions you are working with. I would just get air to water but I guess you dont want to. Depending on boost I would not worry about cr to much with a meth kit if you stay under 9ish lbs.

[Grr]

if using the CX/ebay IC make sure to get the 4" one, I picked up 2psi going from the 3" to the 4" and IATs dropped 10* minimum. Turbo: precision 7675 or 7875 is the only way to go for compactness good spool and power.

No way in hell I would go below 9.5:1 even on pump gas, I ran 16psi on mine with 9.4:1 and no intercooler, was 740whp or so. Nothing wrong with that cam either, the tight LSA is great in the midrange IMHO.

hope the trans holds up and switch to 3.42 gears

[sparkles]

Off topic. What's driving around on the street with a spool all the time like?

[c_mart_28]

Off topic. What's driving around on the street with a spool all the time like?

You're welcome to drive mine whenever.

I have nothing else to add to this conversation.

[FiFdYnUtZ]

Good info grr...and sparkles, its really not all that bad, sure it chirps and chews tires up but i left it in when I bought the rear anticipating to replace it because it would be horrible but its honestly not that bad at all imho

[AutoMods]

grr are you talking about running with meth? I would run 9.0 on my own setup if i was counting on pump gas or even lower. My car did not like pump gas and stock 10:1 compression even on low boost like 6psi. Would see knock. After I added meth it was happy. I think some evos have stock 9.5:1 compression on pump gas but perhaps their motors were designed for turbo from the start and are better designed to resist detonation then the ls1. You gain a only a little horsepower witha high compression ratio but you loose a lot of potential with boost.

[TbTalon94]

9.0:1 is a very friendly boost compression ratio and will still have good off-boost power. If you were to plan to run e85 all the time or race gas, or meth all the time then you can bump it up. If you want to make good power on pump gas and be reliable then 9.0:1 is where it's at. Evo's have 8.8:1 if I remember right. With technology these days you can get away with higher compression on pump gas then what you used to be able to.

[slow ride]

Overall power production is still on the turbo, but high compression makes the motor not such a slug off boost, spools faster, but also decreases the tuning window. I am thinking about twins for the vette over winter so it's funny that you were thinking turbo also. I want to use my 383 shortblock and drop the compression with 317's (might have to work the chambers even more than stock) to get down to at least 10.0. It will be a nightmare to build a kit in the framerails of the vette, but there are other places to put them.

[FiFdYnUtZ]

What is the lowest you can go compression wise with the 317's untouched with stock pistons? Need to figure out how much of a dish I would need on the forged pistons..9.0 sounds about right...not looking to run e85 or method just the occasional 110 mix at the track and bump boost up a bit

[Drifte]

if using the CX/ebay IC make sure to get the 4" one, I picked up 2psi going from the 3" to the 4" and IATs dropped 10* minimum. Turbo: precision 7675 or 7875 is the only way to go for compactness good spool and power.

No way in hell I would go below 9.5:1 even on pump gas, I ran 16psi on mine with 9.4:1 and no intercooler, was 740whp or so. Nothing wrong with that cam either, the tight LSA is great in the midrange IMHO.


hope the trans holds up and switch to 3.42 gears
Looks like your intercooler was way to small in the first place, and I would lean heavily towards turbonetics over precision.

[Grr]

IC was the standard f-body size 31x12 or whatever it is. The 3" was free and the 4" I put on later. this was on a blower car so it was same pulley and piping just 4" over 3", as I too thought the 3" was too small. Regarding t-netics over precision, for price the only thing comparable to the 7875 precision is the TC78, as the new 7876 turbonetics is still hard to get and more expensive. In that case the precision is worth an easy 100whp over the TC units, which IMHO suck

[Drifte]

IC was the standard f-body size 31x12 or whatever it is. The 3" was free and the 4" I put on later. this was on a blower car so it was same pulley and piping just 4" over 3", as I too thought the 3" was too small. Regarding t-netics over precision, for price the only thing comparable to the 7875 precision is the TC78, as the new 7876 turbonetics is still hard to get and more expensive. In that case the precision is worth an easy 100whp over the TC units, which IMHO suck

Since the price sheets never leave my side...
Precision
7875 is a not a billet. 7675 is billet "CEA". 7875 jb is $1459 retail, 7675 jb cea is $1599 retail.

Turbonetics "TC" $850 retail T-series JB $899 retail
let's skip the new GTK HPC line for simplicity sake. The "TC" series, doesn't even exist, its actually the "Hurricane" series. Its a compact compressor cover taken from the 60-1 and 62-1 turbos that people buy to save money, actually an ls1 vendor invented the combination as Turbonetics didn't advertise the TC turbo. With Turbonetics new pricing the bigger T78 is only $35 more. There is no longer a good reason to buy the tc78 over the bigger t78 unless your tight for space near the compressor cover.

Yes the pte 7875 makes more power because it has a bigger turbine wheel. But it also spools slower. Turbonetics has a max size of only a 68mm turbine wheel on their standard t-series. However this winter they are making a 75mm wheel available. But if you want the turbo now you can always buy the midframe bb turbo with a 75mm turbo wheel.


Surprised you didnt know that

[sparkles]

You're welcome to drive mine whenever.

I have nothing else to add to this conversation.

Only if you keep your hands to yourself this time ;)

[Grr]

just from my experience man, had a TC78 on a 370 and switched to a 7875 precision and dropped backpressure and picked up huge power everywhere, spoolup changed about 50rpm, but it made so much more power even coming into boost that was completly moot.

Pricing, I get precision stuff for dealer cost so that also isnt an issue, Im simply using my numbers from memory, the tc78 was $950? back then and the precision was very close to that as well. I dont keep up on this stuff much anymore, I heard testing of the new turbonetics 75mm turbine is supposed to be pretty impressive though. Anyway I look at it the 68mm F1 wheel is just too small for anything over e 5.3 and I rule it out

[FiFdYnUtZ]

So...what turbo should I be looking at for the money? Id like to be on the bigger side

[Drifte]

Can talk to our Turbonetics rep and get the pricing on the t-series with 75mm turbine wheel. Price wise should be the best, not to mention we can give you a nice discount. If you feel like going PTE, get the ball bearing version, and we can still get you a nice discount on that too.

[FiFdYnUtZ]

Do it..do it

[FiFdYnUtZ]

heres a vid of a car with a VERY similar setup to what i want to run..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLkwZeLhp4I

[FiFdYnUtZ]

and what do you guys think of something like this kit vs. custom building my own and having someone local fab it up?
http://kentuckyturboandperformance.com/turbo.html

[sparkles]

You should check out 417 Motorsports.

[FiFdYnUtZ]

im heavily leaning towards the T78, or depending on price the new 75mm t series....they are significantly cheaper and seem to be perfect for my power range

[FiFdYnUtZ]

You should check out 417 Motorsports.

definitely impressed with what i have seen from them, just not looking to go out of state

[slow ride]

I don't like how a lot of the kits don't have flex sections in the hotside piping . Turbo should be supported by something other than the piping and have flex or it might stress/heat crack over time with lots of street miles. The cast truck manifolds are good to go though (I'd portmatch them). I want to try to build mine with either early steel c5 manifolds that I cut and weld to or cast c6 manifolds that are very short and adapt to.

[AutoMods]

I can hook you up for around $700 shipped on tubonetics t76 or t78 or $670 on the tc but i'd go with the full size T series. or we can trade for some paint work possibly. sometimes I buy bulk turbos and can even throw in a billet wheel for $50 extra but probably won't be doing a bulk order until spring time and you don't want to wait til spring because everyone is backed up during spring.

The new t-series with 75mm turbine wheel is due out in december but Turbonetics always is behind so don't count on it.

Piping always takes longer to design then you would think and you have a very common car so I would take advantage of a premade kit if you can afford it.

Flex sections are nice but it does add cost and a possible failure point all in itself, if it fails it may send crap toward the turbo. They aren't really made with thick gauge metal by design. I don't have a flex section. I'm not worried about cracking because I have the turbo supported. but the flex sections are nice because the flex allows your flanges to seat better and the fabricator doesn't have to have everything perfect.

[FiFdYnUtZ]

pm me what you have in mind for a paint work trade...im living in north liberty now so i could also stop by sometime

[slow ride]

I understand about the flex problems, but I'd use a quality SS one. The support is more important I agree. Problems show up more over long periods of operation and heat cycles. I just mentioned the flex since he likes to drive the car a lot I think.

[FiFdYnUtZ]

http://vtsql.gkvbf.servertrust.com/F-body-single-turbo-kit-p/cbrll.htm

found this also, doesnt require standing up the radiator, which for my long drives should help substantially with cooling issues..what do ya think? seems a bit pricey

[allgo]

Put a blower on it..

[FiFdYnUtZ]

yeah ive been considering an F1 for it too ;) haaha

[TbTalon94]

http://vtsql.gkvbf.servertrust.com/F-body-single-turbo-kit-p/cbrll.htm

found this also, doesnt require standing up the radiator, which for my long drives should help substantially with cooling issues..what do ya think? seems a bit pricey

That would work perfectly fine, and it's cheap! I'd get it coated and make a support brace for the turbo and it'd do you well.

[Drifte]

http://vtsql.gkvbf.servertrust.com/F-body-single-turbo-kit-p/cbrll.htm

found this also, doesnt require standing up the radiator, which for my long drives should help substantially with cooling issues..what do ya think? seems a bit pricey
This with the v-band wastegate option, and ceramic coated after all setup.

[AutoMods]

that kit price is fair. i would just read reviews on it. is that a gravity oil drain setup, if so thats always a plus. Not sure how much room there is for a filter. also if you want to recirculate the wastegate back into the downpipe, make sure they made room for it. otherwise just dump the wastegate to the ground if you don't mind being loud at full boost

[FiFdYnUtZ]

Definitely want to dump the wastegate, love that sound!

[Ricky]

Men like it loud

[Drifte]

Men like it loud
dump the rex and you will very quickly change your mind.

[Clinical]

dump the rex and you will very quickly change your mind.
I don't know about that, I don't know how you recirc'd the wastegate on the talon. She sounded beautiful dumped!
http://s765.photobucket.com/albums/xx294/C1inical/?action=view&current=talonpull22.mp4

then again if I remember right you were on a campus with PITA cops

[Drifte]

I don't know about that, I don't know how you recirc'd the wastegate on the talon. She sounded beautiful dumped!
http://s765.photobucket.com/albums/xx294/C1inical/?action=view&current=talonpull22.mp4

It was extremely difficult to mate perfectly with the tight fitting v-bands and valve seat. Had it dumped for a couple years, loved it recirculated.

[Clinical]

Yeah she was definitely a tight one. My laser's f38 dumped was no where near as loud as the talon's MVS.

[TbTalon94]

Dumped gate get's annoying if you drive it all the time. It's awesome in the beginning and when you race, but if you like spirited driving it gets really old. Plus everyone loves the sound of the turbo screaming. When you make decent power with a loud gate you can barely hear the turbo, which sucks.

[slow ride]

Yea, I liked my old talon waaaaaaaaaaaaaay better with the gate internal and you could hear the turbo again. It actually had better boost control with internal since the delta pressure across the turbine was less due to the wastgate added some backpressure behind the turbine wheel. Robert from FP spoke about that years ago.

Real men like whatever makes the cars combo shine and worry about the noise later. I think it's sweet when a turbo car pulls up at the track, doesn't make much noise in the burnout box then clicks off a 8 second pass while making less noise than a turd ghettomobile running high 13's.

[AutoMods]

externally dumped also is like having a larger exhaust when its open, so thats a plus.

[Sleepy]

I think it's sweet when a turbo car pulls up at the track, doesn't make much noise in the burnout box then clicks off a 8 second pass while making less noise than a turd ghettomobile running high 13's.
Yes! It always pisses me off when at the track there is some sweet turbo car and its always lined up against some open header pos and you can not hear anything but the damn pos squeaking off a high 13.

[Ricky]

dump the rex and you will very quickly change your mind.

I like the WRX loud because the sound is sweet and the turbo spools up nice and fast. It sounds like a turbo diesel when cruising through parking lots lol. I also love how my s-10 is supper quiet.

[Drifte]

I like the WRX loud because the sound is sweet and the turbo spools up nice and fast. It sounds like a turbo diesel when cruising through parking lots lol. I also love how my s-10 is supper quiet.
More OT, but cruising behind the rex on my bike its fun to listen to, but stinks.

[Ricky]

More OT, but cruising behind the rex on my bike its fun to listen to, but stinks.

Your on a bike... you should be in front anyhow.... :)

Now back on topic!