Hypothetically...

[Phish]

Lets say your Rx8 had an oil leak. Lets say this leak was between the front housing and the front plate. What would your REALISTIC plans be for the car/motor.

Would you:

Rebuild the existing motor like crazy - Crazy amount of port work, stud the motor all types of coatings and upgraded parts.

Swap in a motor:
ls1
TT 20b
SC 4.6L
13b Rew


Curious on every one elses opinions and what would be the direction they would go with the build. Would like to hear why you chose that option also. Thanks

[SLVR7]

Rew if you want to stay rotary, much more potential then a renenis. Most guys with 20b say it's not worth it in the end.

[Phish]

I know the Rew would be alot more solid platform and most likely the easiest swap to do. There are a few guys on the boards who have completed it with success. 20b, well yes, its a three rotor but i dunno about having a stock motor back in the car lol even if its a unique one. I wouldnt mind a piston motor either. Just not sure what direction i would like to go with it all.

[Drifte]

Sell that motor and do a swap. LS1 will be the lighter of the v8 options.

[AutoMods]

you probably know about this shop, looks like they are still working on parts for the swap http://hinsonsupercars.com/s-942-mazda-rx8-2003-present.aspx

post your question here , you will get some good responses http://www.norotors.com/

[Phish]

Hinson has been working on that swap for years now and have been close to completion for the last year. Not expecting much from them really. I have no issues doing the fabrication work, to me that would be the simple part. Its just deciding what i want to do as far as what motor setup i would like. Also, getting the stock gauges to work with a differnt motor would probably be a trick in itself

[85XR7Project]

As a ford guy I say 4.6, as a smart ford guy i say LS1. LS1 is lighter, narrower and easier to make power on. Rotarys are neat but as I've said before they just don't have the torque or reliability that an LS1 would have. If you know some one with a camaro/vette/gto borrow it for a day. I guarantee you'd become a believer.

[Phish]

Alot of people are saying LS1. Its for a piston motor is seems to be the easiest way to go. Thats why everyone puts it in everything. Still not sure what i wanna do though. Will need to see whats available once i get the motor pulled and everything sold off. I am thinking LS1 or maybe go a little more old school with a 302 but weight is also somewhat of an issue.

[Drifte]

It looks like you care about handling, so I would go with the lighter of the options. LS is also cheaper for parts in comparison to say an rb swap or 1jz. I have heard of other cars getting the stock gauges to work, for some its included in a kit. Dont know about the rx8.

http://www.engineswapdepot.com/?p=626

[AutoMods]

if you want to be cheap you could go with the gen iii chevy 6.0 lq9 or lq4 truck engines, similar to the ls2 but they are iron and weigh 80lbs more and cost several thousand less then the ls2 but have the same great head options and can built to 400ci easily . Similar computers/tuning. They are only $800-$1200 from junk yards and the engine of choice for 900+ whp builds over the aluminum blocks. Once your car is setup for that motor you could eventually go with an ls3 or ls7 down the road if you come accross some money. I might do an iron block this winter, either that or forge my ls1.

[JustinS]

1) Sell your rotary
2) Sell your turbo kit
3) install LS1
4) .....?
5) profit!!

[Phish]

Not sure how much profit there will be there. but i am hoping to get around 5-6k for my turbo kit, motor, and trans. That should get me a motor/trans and get me started i hope. Will still need to find a quality complete motor and trans with all the wiring and everything.

[AutoMods]

ls1 with t56 go for around $3000-$3500 these days with computer and harness. the 98 computer is an odd duck, you have to work around some things to tune while boosted

[Phish]

From what i am seeing your right on with that price. Then some other stuff would need to be changed, modified, or boughten obviously. Two main things being drive shaft and steering rack. I have heard that the 95 camaro steering rack will work in the swap instead of the RX8. Again thats more to look into also. This opens up a whole new world for me with this car. I can see this going either direction. One haveing a great ending and the other having a not so great outcome.

[AutoMods]

the only way you can fail with an ls1 swap is if you first lose motivation and don't want to finish the swap or run out of money. The motor won't let you down.

Now the rotary will end up breaking your heart and let you down with failure first, then run you out of money and last you lose motivation.

[Drifte]

If the fab works the easy part and doesnt intimidate you, you have nothing to worry about. Using sensors from the wankel on the ls1 you should be able to have most of your cluster working. Or go with a race pak or something similar.

[Phish]

Yup I belive the wiring will be the big issue really. but i am sure it can all be worked through. the other BIG BIG thing is finding someone to buy my turbo kit and/or motor.

[Domestic Disturbance]

As mainstream as ls1 swaps seem, its hard to avoid how light it is compared to other v8 swaps. I like 4v 4.6's but that would completely ruin the weight distribution in that car, and it appears you enjoy some eager slide action

[c_mart_28]

I don't think you could ever get a 4v 4.6 to fit...thing is ridiculous wide.

Fiberglass front end maybe..

Just start with a junkyard 5.3 and go from there. I've heard of those being found for less than $500 intake to oil pan and in running order. Like Ryan is doing, if you want to step up your game later, any of the lsx motors will bolt in just the same (as I understand it..) You'll have so many different things to upgrade at first that you'll like the extra ching left in your pocket afterwords..

[Batwood]

3800 superchar..... never mind.

[Deimos]

coyote motor http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Modular_engine#5.0.C2.A0L_Coyote

LSX

[sparkles]

Tpi ftmfw!

[Drifte]

Tpi ftmfw!

You're just joking right?

[sparkles]

Lol, mine made more horse than his did at the dyno. Plus, don't got the 302 route. Evidently, you already have that covered. You coming out tomorrow night?

[Phish]

Here is a little video of the issue at hand:

http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee44/Phish806/th_VIDEO0001.jpg (http://s232.photobucket.com/albums/ee44/Phish806/?action=view&current=VIDEO0001.mp4)

[AutoMods]

wow, thats a fast leak. previous owner of my fc must have driven his car with a leak like that, there was a ton of oil on the underbody

[Phish]

yeah, i notced a couple drops a few days ago on the garage floor. Assumed it was the oil return line (had issues with that before) so i let it go for about a week. I finally got around to lookin at it and the underneith had quite a bit of wil on it. I will prolly drive it this weekend then call it good and park it. Figure out my next move from here.

[85XR7Project]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dm0IKl6cd2c

and you're still considering? This would sell me over even considering a rotary at this point.

[Phish]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UU8I-5-YlAg

Rotary

[AutoMods]

do the rotary

[Domestic Disturbance]

I think the point was one sounded sick!

[Phish]

I dunno, i kinda like the sound of the rotary. Also, i have someprices in on some rebuilds. See what it will cost me to get some extra work done to help beef up the renesis if i do decide to stick with it. However, if i do it will be ported, and i believe there is verry little that sounds better then a bridged rotary at idle.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_OU49LO8PE

[AutoMods]

ya man that bridged rotary will sound sick idling at the car shows

[Phish]

Whatever takes the focus off the oil leak. It all looks the same with the hood closed anyway.

[c_mart_28]

bridgeport just so that you can tear it out and rebuild it every 5k miles?

Only reason to go bridge on a rotary is if you want to stay N/A in my opinion. Yes, more power can be had, but with the turbo application the gains are only minimal and at a great cost.

I think its a solid idea to stay rotary (you've gone this far..) but just do a healthy street port and leave it at that. Keep in mind, however, that you went to "the best of the best" to have your motor built and tuned..only to get you to where after a few thousand miles you have a oil geyser between your iron and housing. Is it a Renesis specific problem or did you just get a shoddy build in the first place?

If you were to go LS1, you'd have the support of local tuners, builders, parts, aftermarket parts, experienced people around you, etc, etc..

Staying rotary means you're driving all over everywhere chasing down whoever might be your saving grace. I.E., where you are at right now. That is, unless you're just going to do it all yourself, which would be the route I would say would ultimately be the most beneficial (if you stay rotard.) :)

[AutoMods]

Casey, your ruining my reverse psychology attempts.

ahh screw it , see here http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/throw+good+money+after+bad

[c_mart_28]

Lol. My bad Ryan.

Yep, I can just hear it hard parked out in front of Ziebart "brap brap brap.."

[DustinsDuster]

Gen III Hemi.

[Domestic Disturbance]

It really comes down to what interests you the most. If you truely love rotaries then stick with it. The lsx/other v8 option would without question be a much better powerplant, more reliable, etc, but if thats not what interests you then why waste your time? Every person has a different interest and application.

[sparkles]

Casey brings up a very good point. I know you wanna be different and all, but if you do go to a V8, there's plenty of us that can help and give you tips and tricks from what we know as opposed to driving around the country.

[Phish]

yeah i have thought many of times about how much easier it woudl be to get help and parts if it was a V8 and thats part of the appeal. I was talking to Steve Kan about it again today and he is telling me that he things the bridgeport is a bad idea on the renesis. Still dont know we are debating it and trying to figure out what the issue was that could have caused this. Ultimately i would like to stay rotary. I have come a long way with this car and like how it drives and how it acts and i like the feelign of the turbo car. Besides, sparkles knows that if it was on full boost and a good tune it would work his ass no problem.

[sparkles]

Yup

[c_mart_28]

Yeah but let's be honest, you know that beating me is also up there on the goals list. Take more than 20 or so psi to do that ;)

[Phish]

Shit ... beating that cobra wont happen in an Rx8.

Just finnished talking to Steve for the night, Petty much said that studding the motor and the bridgeport is useless for my application. Studding the motor should not be needed till the stress of 600whp is his thoughts and only some port work on the exhaust was his suggestion as far as parts go. I can understand that also because of the design diference between he Rews and the renesis. Long story short, a rebuild will most likely cost me around $2500. I have thought about doing it myself, but not sure on what parts and seals would need replacing. Also, if i do it myself and dont do any portwork or studding, i wouldnt have to dissasemble the whole motor. I would jsut need to take off the front stack, front plate, and first side housing and replace it. It could be very do able i am thinking since i have already taken off the front stack and redone that. If i did the build myself i could prolly do it for a grand. Desisions decisions.

[c_mart_28]

Does racing beat (or the like) make porting templates? Always what was used on my motors.

[Phish]

Yes they do actually. From what i heard they are way concervitive and arnt really worth the time or money for them. Good call though, forgot about those. We will see how i feel after it sits for awhile.

I was out last night in it giving it a good hate beating on the street. It was keeping up rather well to the guys i was with just running off the wastegate's five pounds. Made me realize how far i had actually come with the car. I truely believe if i get it right and things go as planned it will be a force to recon with.

[c_mart_28]

Well porting isn't anything more than..well, porting.

Take a porting template, use it's general shape and just be a little more aggressive with it. Like steve said, just the exhaust side so its only aluminum. A healthy port with a few extra lb's should do the trick.

The motor itself has the potential, yes..but i'd be more concerned with just a healthy motor in general. Maybe just slap some of toyota's fipg on that iron and see if it slows it. Ask tad about that that stuff, might at least slow the geyser.

[AutoMods]

i think rotaries are cool and all but they scare me. is there even such a thing as a reliable 500+whp rotary that gets beat on daily and you don't have to worry about it? Can't remember the last time I seen one at the drag strip. i see more v8 rx7's at the drag strip then i do rotary ones which is really odd considering how many more rotary rx7's there are out there.

on my fc, previous owner had this rotary rebuilt and 4k miles later it failed again. i just put it out of its misery and gave this motor to a friend, Brandon, and he took some parts from it and combined it with parts from another motor to make one good rebuilt rotary. sounded like he knew what he was doing. well his motor never ran right so he pulled it back apart and put it together again and it still didn't run right. this is over the course of a couple years. well he ended up selling his car. i hear this story all too often.
.
just like clutchmuch on here buys an fc and like two weeks later the motor stops running. also I know Casey's old fc has had motor issues and hasn't really been running for two years and Eric is on his 2nd rebuild attept with it, suppose to have it running soon now though.
.
here is a picture of me beginning the heart transplant
http://www.importevolution.com/public/rx7/pulling_motor2.jpg

.
here is my swap build thread
http://iowaautoforums.com/showthread.php?6517-Starting-a-new-LS1-rx7-project-picked-up-an-rx7-last-week&highlight=rx7+project

[Domestic Disturbance]

i think rotaries are cool and all but they scare me. is there even such a thing as a reliable 500+whp rotary that gets beat on daily and you don't have to worry about it?

Exactly. Every story I hear about rotaries and their issues has put a bad taste in my mouth for them.

Thats one of the reasons I love my car so much is reliability. You can ask my friends, I don't baby my car in the least. Its a stock longblock, but I've put nearly 40k on it without even a hickup.

[Phish]

The motor not running right and failing are two differnt things to me. Not running right, would be builder or tuner error while failing would be the motors fault by going boom. Dont know if its just how you worded your post or not but thats what i am gathering.

As far as i reliable daily driven 500 whp rotary. I imagine they are out there for an rx7 but definately not an rx8. The highest horse daily driven RX8 thats on the boards i woudl say is like... 325ish. Its really hard to get good power out of the renesis because of issues like i am having. Highest HP stock block rx8 that i have heard of was 425whp and it took a dive once the boost controller failed and hit 20lbs on the dyno. Again i am trying to be one of the pioneers with this motor and thats why i am having issues with everything. I could run 7 lbs through a stock greddy kit and have 275 whp all day long with no issues. To me, thats not worth it. Why woudl i want a car that tucks a tiny turbo down under a motor that barely makes a differnce and gives it ahardly any power, especially when such a kit costs $3500.

As far as if i did the rebuild myself, Casey, i woudl be unsure on the seals. What woudl need to be replaced and what would not. I think i woudl be a little lost in that aspect and do not want to do a toatal rebuild kit on the thing again since i did that 3000 miles ago. I dont really know of anyone local who could help me out on that aspect either. I know dave rebuild his, but he is a busy guy and i doubt i could get him out here (no offence dave). Oh, and whats this stuff from toyota your talking about for a temp patch?

[c_mart_28]

Toyota FIPG, ask Tad about it. Its basically what Toyota uses to make certain types of gaskets and is pretty effective. I bet it at least causes the leak to slow. At that point you're just like every other rotary on the road rocking an oil leak. Or two or three.

Now, my FC had probably right around 350-400 whp from a garage built (not by me) and racing beat template ported motor. Car ran great on 17 lbs from a 57 trim T04e on e85 for months with me being less than gentle with it. Could've gone for a lot longer I feel had I not decided to be superman one night and throw another 3 lbs at it just to see how it'd do. (Lesson learned that just because its running very rich under load that does not mean that more boost will lean it out..) Of the 3 times I had my motor apart, I actually had never technically "blown" it. Failure came from all other sorts, however. Several cracked corner seals happened a couple times but that could have been due to the fact that I was using some relatively unknown build components from various motors.

On that power level the car was actually scary on a 225 series all season tire. Probably weighed in around 2600 maybe 2700 lbs. Rolling into boost in third gear would set you very sideways in a hurry.

I've told Phish this before, but, even with all that being said, all the pushing I'm doing for him to go V8, all the horror stories, etc, etc, I will have another rotary someday. Likely an FD in mostly stock form. Eliminate all the known issues and just drive it. I doubt I'll ever try to make good power with one but at their curb weight, you don't need a ton of the hp's.