DSM cylinder head program

[NitrousMike]

Well guys the numbers dont lie. i just finished flowing the head on the flow bench here is a comparison of a stock 1g 4g63 cylinder head vs a ported 1g 4g63 cylinder head with stock size valves. I even compared the head with FOX LAKES 4g63 head Jon Shepard used for his 7.70 @191pass. All tests are used on a Super flow sf600 bench and 28'' of H2O. http://images.smartcart.com/turbochargedparts/images/graph-2.png
http://images.smartcart.com/turbochargedparts/images/graph.png

[NitrousMike]

Note: our head still retains a stock size valve. Fox lakes head has 1mm oversized valves. Our head should flow 325cfm @.500 with the 1mm over sized valves.

[Clinical]

What does an average job like this run?
I have a 6bolt head with FP2 cams, 3g lifters, BC springs & retainers, 1mm oversized ss valves

[OldSkoolRCR]

MIKE,MIKE,MIKE....WTF is going through your head with this DSM shit? You need to RUUUUUUUNNNNNNN as fast as you car from them money pits.

[Scott]

Radar does do a good port job I can vouch for that one! Very affordable for the amount of work and experience that goes into his work. If you debating about having it done I wouldnt hesitate, radar has saved my ass a few times. He did alot of misc/port work on my heads, intake, and intake spacers that would have cost me a fortune somewhere else.

[snickerlicker]

MIKE,MIKE,MIKE....WTF is going through your head with this DSM shit? You need to RUUUUUUUNNNNNNN as fast as you car from them money pits.

LOL

[Xboosted23X]

I would run a 2g head over a 1g head. lets see some dyno numbers comparing the heads.

[NitrousMike]

Dont believe all of the info on the internet. These are actual numbers and will outflow and out power any 4g63 head on the market. The low lift numbers and high lift outflow any 2g head,or evo head. If any one wants to dyno test this head against a 2g I will let them use it.

[TbTalon94]

The biggest names in the Industry use 2g heads. The FASTEST guys in the industry use a 2g head. I think they know what's going on.

In the 1g vs 2g head debate, it's the entry angle into the Intake valves that is FAR superior on a 2g head then a 1g.

[slow ride]

What are the lift numbers on some of the new bigger cams out for a 4g63 as I don't remember and have been out of the loop? Flow numbers past those lifts are worthless anyway so that would show how useable the heads are. Mid lift is where it's at though.

[NitrousMike]

I will post some mid lift numbers tonight. Most of the off the shelf race cams are close to .500 lift.

[Xboosted23X]

your right numbers don't lie. Dyno, track, and et. I would look into 2g heads. If your heads out flow the current best out there I expect all the big names to switch back to a 1g head.

[NitrousMike]

well john shepard runs a 1g

[oVa-Boost]

hows the 2g better? the runners in the intake are smaller than 1g head

[Xboosted23X]

more velocity

[NitrousMike]

heres the mid lift numbers on the intake. I didnt have time tonight to do the exhaust, so I will get those numbers tomorrow
.050" 46.7031 CFM
.100" 90.434 CFM
.150" 131.41 CFM
.200" 178.70 CFM
.250" 217.28CFM
.300" 252.06CFM
.350" 274.71 CFM
.400" 290.3446 CFM
.450" 303.107 CFM
.500" 309.50 CFM
.550" 310.443 CFM
.600" 316.00 CFM

[NitrousMike]

this is with a stock size valve

[Clinical]

well john shepard runs a 1g

John Shepherd is magic

[bowtiebuba]

I dont post very much and i dont out right disagree with harldy anyone on this forum but the the 2g head is retarded... more flow = better bigger runners more flow=more power, 2g heads just dont have it, ya you can port the 2g head even then its not a "home" or even local type machine shop deal, so i say screw the 2g head, sorry for the rant I dont do it often.

[TbTalon94]

Lol those of us who are in the know is obvious.

Sorry guys, the 2g head will out-perform the 1g head with the right work to it. It's simple fluid dynamics. The entry angle is superior and like xboosted23x said, more velocity. Bigger is not always better. You have to factor in these cars are forced inducted, not naturally aspirated. That plays a huge factor on how things play out in the real world outside of flowbenches and computer tests.

It's just like the debate awhile ago about intake manifolds. People think a good design on paper will automatically make more power then one that it beats on paper. That is NOT the case in the real world.

Now, that is not saying that these 1g heads you are offering Mike won't perform. Obviously they are flowing a good bit and will make good power! We are just recommending doing some research on a 2g head...you might be suprised at what they can do on a dyno...not a flowbench!

[Scott]

Sounds like the boys with the franken-whatever cars on here like to try some nutty stuff.. How about do a back to back test, they're going the track tomorrow with their "Im assuming stock head".. Then swap the head out with a radar one, go back the week after with a little tuning to optimize it and see what happens.

I agree its iffy to claim the best performing ANYTHING without even doing a track test, I have faith in Radars work because I have done back to back testing with it and was surprised. The trend I've seen with the 2 heads I've personally had done is lots of torque, top end was definetly better but I didnt notice any loss of mid-range even with the larger valves and more volume runner. Maybe its in the valve job ;) You all know me, I dont like dyno numbers or trust them, I just check numbers at the track.

One other thing, if the head was flowed on Radars bench I know its conservative.. My first pair of heads I flowed myself at Wyotech and they were measuring about 310 cfm max on the intake, on Radars bench without changing anything they were measuring under 300 cfm.

[NitrousMike]

I agree with you Scott, we dont race on dynos. I am game for back to back testing with our head.

[Scott]

There ya go, hook up with Mr Fangman and test that biotch out!! See what the track says about it

[FiFdYnUtZ]

looks impressive regardless, im looking into having radar do some work for me in the future..

[NitrousMike]

Anytime cfm goes up it means velocity goes up, if the port flow less at different lifts there is less velocity at that lift. A boosted motor will benefit with a higher flowing (more efficient port), the benefits are lower boost pressures (less intake back pressure) which decreases intake charge temps = more power. I flowed a ported 2g head and 283cfm is about all you can squeeze out of them with a stock size valve. I can run smaller cams with less duration with this head to keep cylinder pressures higher and increase power. We are flowing over %110 per intake valve area which is awesome. With a 1mm over size valve calculated cfm is around 325cfm per intake valve area.

[Jappbox]

Its not all about flow guys. A EVO head is far better than a 1G or even 2G head. And if big ports and flow mattered so much then supras would be piss ass slow, a 2jz intake and exhaust port is about 1" much much smaller than any 4g63 port. yet stock 2JZ heads flow amazing to 1100+ hp.

[Scott]

I just want to see some testing! Everyone can argue about what heads are better but Im willing to bet no one on this website has seen the heads compared on the track. Im sure Jesse knows dyno numbers but that doesnt win races=dont count lol

[NitrousMike]

I just want to see some testing! Everyone can argue about what heads are better but Im willing to bet no one on this website has seen the heads compared on the track. Im sure Jesse knows dyno numbers but that doesnt win races=dont count lol
lol, Im getting excited

[NitrousMike]

All im trying to show these guys, there is power left on the table. I know you can make 1000plus hp in a supra or a 4g63 with an almost stock head. The only thing im trying to show them is, you could be running alot lower boost numbers with less inlet temps and make just as much power with a better flowing head. Im all about having every stoned turned and make sure you dont leave any thing on the table.

[Xboosted23X]

So your the first person to ever maximize the port job on a 4g63? The motor is over 20 years old, I think it has been tested and proven you don't need an aggressive port on these motors.
Curt brown, TPG, Abele and Mike reichen all run 2g heads. Curt ports for the first 3 names.

What kind of pricing are you talking on these amazing heads?

[Scott]

So your the first person to ever maximize the port job on a 4g63? The motor is over 20 years old, I think it has been tested and proven you don't need an aggressive port on these motors.
Curt brown, TPG, Abele and Mike reichen all run 2g heads. Curt ports for the first 3 names.

What kind of pricing are you talking on these amazing heads?

I honestly would not be surprised if he "radar" found something in the heads that no one else has found yet. I have no inside info on this project but it wouldnt be the first time someone has regreted it!! hahahahaaaa

[Jappbox]

curt brown breaks all records when it comes to evos/dsm's the guy puts a rediculous amount of time into them. look according to even his site you dont hog them out. http://curtbrownracing.com/cylinder_heads_2.html sorry be be a downer but like xboosted23x said the motor is 20 years old and all the secrets have been found.

[Scott]

Im not saying anyone elses cylinder heads suck, Im just saying you dont want to dismiss Radar's stuff because it doesnt have some famous DSM guys name it. I dont know man, seems like records are being broke everyday so I wouldnt say everything has been found. Thinking like that and putting blinders on to everything else isnt a good way to be!! If you knew the list of names and racing teams that radar does/did head work for, you might change your mind

[SLVR7]

Monkey see monkey do. Who's was the head to have before brown's? I'll bet that person was branded as the best, and know one else could do better, until opps they did. All the tricks have been found mentality is what keeps the masses in the middle of the pack. The top racers are at the top because they continue to try new things. Do they always work, no, but when you quit trying to be innovative you take yourself out of the game.

[Clinical]

Could be more than we know out there yet undiscovered.
Definitely not bad for a 20 year old motor.. it's just like the SBC's though, very old platform yet still one of the best things out there for the money. Not much can hold a candle to it in dollar to horsepower performance - still new things coming out for it all the time.

[NitrousMike]

1g head> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aTJj-YaMdsk

[NitrousMike]

Its very clear why I am in this market ; )

[NitrousMike]

I honestly would not be surprised if he "radar" found something in the heads that no one else has found yet.
I think you got it dead on.

[Xboosted23X]

Its very clear why I am in this market ; )


Your going after Shep. good luck.

I'm not saying Radar doesn't know what he is doing.
Lets see some track numbers.
And I'm still waiting on a price.

[Xboosted23X]

sorry to whore up the thread.

I was doing some searching around and was on fox lakes website. Lil info I found interesting.
"Why is the Fox Lake Stage 1 porting so expensive?
Jimmy Noname down the road can port my heads for $250.
Because of the extensive research and development time Fox Lake invests into our porting programs we are confident that we have the best porting packages available today. There is no guesswork involved, and we don't just port heads until they "look" like they will flow properly. It is very common to have a ported head that looks great and simply doesn't work well. Many head porters that do heads by hand can't even come close to duplicating each port, which leads to very unequal flow numbers. Also, big flow numbers aren't the only aspect of a good cylinder head port job. By simply grinding away at a port might make big flow numbers, but will not always make horsepower and torque where you actually need it. Our porting packages are tailored to your needs, based on our extensive database of cylinder head flow techniques. Remember, a deal isn't a deal if the performance on the track isn't there"

[NitrousMike]

:TCP/R&J Performance 4G63 PORTED 1G head , reconditioned, stock valves and springs,
multi angle valve job, new racing valve guides, milled flat and assembled with new seals..... $1,080.00
+$500 without core.

:Supertech Stainless intake and Inconel exhaust. $340. *ADD $150 for 1mm oversize option. *Please read note at the bottom of this post.

:PAC valve springs and Ti retainers (the best valve spring hands down and is the same brand we run in the top fuel car) $250
GSC or kiggly springs available for $160 more.

:Oringing cylinder head, machining receiver grooves in the block, and decking the block,will cost $350.
*This will prevent any cylinder head lifting issues running past 35psi without having to use l19 studs*. We use this procedure on the topfuel car and never have any issues with cylinder head lifting.

** a down payment of 50% is recommended, all prices based on customer sending good usable core. If customer doesn't have a good core add a $500 dollar core charge**

**Note: The dsm and evo heads need different valve seats on the intake when installing 1mm larger intake valves. We have measured the intake seats and determined this. A proper valve seat size is critical for heat dissipation for the valve, especially for these high winding max effort 4 cylinder engines that generate very high cylinder pressures and heat. I am very shocked the bigger named shops do not install different seats. $150 for oversized seats.

[NitrousMike]

sorry to whore up the thread.

I was doing some searching around and was on fox lakes website. Lil info I found interesting.
"Why is the Fox Lake Stage 1 porting so expensive?
Jimmy Noname down the road can port my heads for $250.
Because of the extensive research and development time Fox Lake invests into our porting programs we are confident that we have the best porting packages available today. There is no guesswork involved, and we don't just port heads until they "look" like they will flow properly. It is very common to have a ported head that looks great and simply doesn't work well. Many head porters that do heads by hand can't even come close to duplicating each port, which leads to very unequal flow numbers. Also, big flow numbers aren't the only aspect of a good cylinder head port job. By simply grinding away at a port might make big flow numbers, but will not always make horsepower and torque where you actually need it. Our porting packages are tailored to your needs, based on our extensive database of cylinder head flow techniques. Remember, a deal isn't a deal if the performance on the track isn't there"
I can assure you these ports are designed very well , flow equal, and will make a shit load of tourqe and hp. Radar has developed cylinder heads for multiple racing teams and companies, and the teams go to him for one thing, PERFORMANCE.

[TbTalon94]

Well lets see some track/dyno numbers.

You guys are missing the point. No one said Radar's work isn't good, or won't make power. We are just saying the fastest guys in the DSM world realized that 2g heads are better, will make more torque and go the fastest.

John Shep uses a 1g head because it's given to him by his engine builder..buschur. Now say he switched to a 2g head, there probably wouldn't be much difference because of the level he is at. Brent Rau on the other hand, pretty sure he runs a 2g head...and he has went 6.8's at 200+mph. Again, not saying he wouldn't go just as fast on a 1g head because he's at that level.

Now take Curt Brown. He has set a ton of records for all kinds of turbos, cars, etc. because his port work on his head. He ALWAYS makes rediculous power...and he uses a 2g head. The Evo heads are the same design as a 2g head and look at them fly.

[Scott]

Well lets see some track/dyno numbers.

You guys are missing the point. No one said Radar's work isn't good, or won't make power. We are just saying the fastest guys in the DSM world realized that 2g heads are better, will make more torque and go the fastest.

John Shep uses a 1g head because it's given to him by his engine builder..buschur. Now say he switched to a 2g head, there probably wouldn't be much difference because of the level he is at. Brent Rau on the other hand, pretty sure he runs a 2g head...and he has went 6.8's at 200+mph. Again, not saying he wouldn't go just as fast on a 1g head because he's at that level.

Now take Curt Brown. He has set a ton of records for all kinds of turbos, cars, etc. because his port work on his head. He ALWAYS makes rediculous power...and he uses a 2g head. The Evo heads are the same design as a 2g head and look at them fly.

I've been saying as well the track will tell, the 2 sets of heads I've had Radar do up for me picked up at the track, never did dyno testing only track testing.. Obviously the heavy hitters that push these engines to the limit ARENT seeing a big advantage with either head so that should tell the majority of the story right there. As far as Curt Brown holding records, well I'll just say I've seen more records in the DSM world than the guiness book of world records. They have "records" for the fastest red colored 92 laser with a black hood on it, I stopped paying attention to those a while ago because it got so rediculous.

[NitrousMike]

Well lets see some track/dyno numbers.

You guys are missing the point. No one said Radar's work isn't good, or won't make power. We are just saying the fastest guys in the DSM world realized that 2g heads are better, will make more torque and go the fastest.

John Shep uses a 1g head because it's given to him by his engine builder..buschur. Now say he switched to a 2g head, there probably wouldn't be much difference because of the level he is at. Brent Rau on the other hand, pretty sure he runs a 2g head...and he has went 6.8's at 200+mph. Again, not saying he wouldn't go just as fast on a 1g head because he's at that level.

Now take Curt Brown. He has set a ton of records for all kinds of turbos, cars, etc. because his port work on his head. He ALWAYS makes rediculous power...and he uses a 2g head. The Evo heads are the same design as a 2g head and look at them fly.

I've been saying as well the track will tell, the 2 sets of heads I've had Radar do up for me picked up at the track, never did dyno testing only track testing.. Obviously the heavy hitters that push these engines to the limit ARENT seeing a big advantage with either head so that should tell the majority of the story right there. As far as Curt Brown holding records, well I'll just say I've seen more records in the DSM world than the guiness book of world records. They have "records" for the fastest red colored 92 laser with a black hood on it, I stopped paying attention to those a while ago because it got so rediculous.
lmao

[Scott]

Sorry to sound like a dick, that came out worse than I thought.

[Ricky]

Sorry to sound like a dick, that came out worse than I thought.


but true.....

[TbTalon94]

LOL it is very true Scot.

What i meant is the records he has set are worth while. Like fastest 16g car, fastest 35r car, etc. etc.

[Scott]

LOL it is very true Scot.

What i meant is the records he has set are worth while. Like fastest 16g car, fastest 35r car, etc. etc.

Yeah that is better then most of the claimed records out there, but it still is a "claimed" record. Not regulated by any rules, no teching of the cars to make sure they're regulated the same, no weighing of the vehicles and so on.. Im sure they're trust worthy people and their word is solid, I thought that about alot of people untill you have to race against them then you start realize theres alot going on behind the scenes.

What sort of proof is there? Is there actually classes they race in regulated by 16g turbos or 35r turbos? Maybe there is some classes out there but I havent heard of them.

Seems to me the actual competitive classes that these type of engines are used IS the classes that Brent Rau and Shppard race in. Again, just another of my 1/2 ignorant observations but I would think these guys are tapping out the engines as much as possible and would know better than anyone involved what works and what doesnt. and it is apparently is not clear if one head definitively better than the other when pushed to the limit.

[TbTalon94]

I believe for 99% of the DSM crowd a 2g head will provide the better power curve hands down. The 2g head provides better torque BECAUSE of the slightly smaller ports and increased velocity at the back of the valve. With good work, which i'm sure Radar is capable of...the 2g head is a better solution for anybody looking to stay under the rediculous and make a good flat powerband instead of a peaky powerband.

Now for someone looking to run a half filled hard-block, and methanol (shep, brent)...then the 1g head is where it's at because they need maximum flow for the 80+psi they run in boost.

[Xboosted23X]

just a update shep isn't running a foxlake head anymore. He is running a 1g head though.

[Sleeping]

just a update shep isn't running a foxlake head anymore. He is running a 1g head though.

Hmm if 2g is so great why wouldn't shep be running it?

[Xboosted23X]

Well I said the 2g head has better velocity than a 1g. A 2g will better suit most of the dsmers out there. How many people have the same setup as shep? Also the big debate was on flow bench numbers not mattering as much as velocity. Which numerous head builders have said. And the OP compared his head to sheps head which he used over 3 years ago.

[NitrousMike]

Good flow numbers mean the head has good velocity. You are not going to get a good low lift number like our head with out velocity. The reason why Shep is running a 1g head is because it flows more and make more power with less boost. A more efficient port is going to make less back pressure and lower inlet temps. Most of your dsm head porters are not even head porters. The 2g head is a street/strip head and I would not recommend it for all out racing.

[AutoMods]

How many people in this thread have actually ported a head and used the test equipment?

I'll be the first to admit I haven't ... I could do 100 hours of reading and I still wouldn't feel comfortable arguing with someone who has been getting their hands dirty and is using the equipment first hand.

Its funny how I see customers who only want parts made by AMS, Bushur, Forced Performance, etc and refuse to buy the one I suggest for cheaper, exact same part direct from the Manufacturer that really made the part just without the shop name behind it. Happens with turbos sometimes. ETS makes FMIC kits for other shops that rebadges them. Wiseco and CP piston rings are made by the same outsourced company just wiseco charges more, etc, etc

[NitrousMike]

I couldnt agree more.

[skipdownstairs]

Mike when you wanna get that head on my car....