New Camaro v.more GM hate

[krustindumm]

Check this stuff before leaving the dealership in your brand new Camaro.


The list:
__________________________________________________ _____________________________________________
001. Loose Bolts that hold fluid back causing leaks (ex: on oil pan, tranny fluid)
002. Trunk Locking mechanism (issues with opening w/o adding down pressure to top of trunk first and/or emergency release appears to be loose keeping the trunk from locking properly)
003. Loose plastic paneling around the 4-gauges cluster, launch control, cigarette power plug as well as Left and Right A-Pillars Trim Loose, sill trim loose, and dash pannel where doors and dash meet popping open.
004. Loose Spoiler/installed correctly (Re-torque Spoiler bolts)
005. Wiper transmission cable overheating from engine causing a short circuit.
006. Matching Headlight Halos strength. (one defective being dimmer then the other).
007. Mismatched paint on parts of the vehicle (including gas door). As well as paint runs or clear coat runs. Paint Chips.
008. Loose Rocker Panel "Chevrolet" causing it to peel off.
009. Minor Problem With Window Indexing.
010. Ambient Lighting on doors defective.
011. Bad radiator (leaks).
012. Hood release/latch issues (won't unhook to open the hood).
013. Gap at base of ONStar Antenna.
014. Battery cable routing near the starter has been done.
015. Digital Speedometer is off. Also keeps going on and off.
016. Bottom pulley shakes and needs replacement per dealer.
017. Broken tranny.
018. Ignition Mechanism Issue with key getting stuck in car.
019. Non RS taillights installed on RS equipped cars (all 4 of them).
020. Rocker Panel aligned with body and clipped in correctly.
021. Bumper rubs with body
022. Trunk opens with switch and remote
023. Correct speedo/tach gauge ring color
023. Ambient lighting on drivers door as bright as passenger door
024. Doors gaps /alignment
025. Dirt/bubbles in rally stripes
026. Door panel not scratched from seat belt.
027. Shift knobs wearing out extremely fast could be faulty material
028. AC system stops blowing cold air in random durations, most likely blockage in AC drainage and/or AC draining into the car instead of beneath it
029. Clunking noise in changing gears
030. Trunk opens with remote and laser cut key
031. USB drive and aux port works
032. Squeaky Breaks
033. GFX installed correctly
034. Rims and tires in good condition (coming off carrier in bad condition/damaged)
035. Check for damage in the interior, basic procedure
036. Check the locking mechanism of both doors
037. Scraping sound for a second when backing up
038. SS emblem on trunk is loose
039. Loose interior windshield trim loose
040. The front GFX lip is not coming loose at the double sided tape
041. The front passenger brake rotors are not wearing with a dark colored groove
042. Hood latch handle on inside of cab doesn't retract properly (just hangs)
043. Scratches in seats
044. Oil cooler leaking
045. Once in every 10-15 times I unlock the car, the drivers side door is still locked, while
the locking knob on the door is in the "up" position
046. Faulty as gauge (improper readings)
047. Missing paint around the headlights
048. Bleed screw on clutch slave cylinder loose
049. Stickers on rockers peeling
050. Scratches on window pillars
051. Misaligned body & door panels as well as hood not centered properly (more to one side then the other)
052. Alignment of doors to dash interior the door interior seems to sag below the dash interior
053. Drivers side roof light( the one with the toggle switch) only works when its toggled over to the passenger side
054. Door sill decals peeling up
055. Paint swirls in driver/passenger door
056. Drive-shaft connection to the differential cracking when dropping the clutch
057. Tach Needle Sticking
058. Wiper motor wiring comes through bottom of the cowling-well in front of the driver. (The fix (decided upon between the dealer and myself) was to re-insulate the wires, cover the harness with a hard, slick plastic covering, drill a small hole in the bottom of the cowling-well (fill the hole with silicone) and use a cable tie down like the rest of the wiper harness uses to secure the harness to the floor of the cowling (the grommet will collapse downward with little force), far away from harm from the wiper arms.)
059. engine makes continuous clicking noise, starting roughly 5 seconds after engine starts
060. Door Sill plates wrinkled on outside edges (both sides)
061. Trunk gasket at bottom of rear window coming off
062. Uneven Dash (driver's side dash is lower then passenger's side)
063. Passenger/Driver's side Fender alignment off. (wheel cover well had to come off, then loosen fender bolt, and it pops right in place)
064. Key won't stay in folded position
065. Faulty Tail lights.
066. Weather stripping at back of rear windows loose (I can literally grab and peel it back).
067. Missing or peeling paint between trunk lid and spoiler (right rear section)--could possibly spread over time down the trunk lid.
068. Driver's seat makes clicking noises when set all the way back.

I see GM has been working hard to improve their quality control and turn into a profitable company again. I also noticed that they are striving to keep their company American, by assembling the car in Canada, and paying foreigners with American tax dollars.

Fuck GM.

[krustindumm]

Oh, and they don't publish the country of origin on the Chevrolet website. I'm headed to a dealer tonight to check out the window sticker.

[Drifte]

I used to work for this guy in Cedar Falls, who was to put it nicely, a completely jack ass. He was on the list for one of those cars...I hope it falls apart on him.

[ZEE]

Camaros have been built in Canada since 1993.

[krustindumm]

Camaros have been built in Canada since 1993.

Yeah...and they retooled that factory while they are working on closing one in Kansas and one in Ohio.

Fuck GM.

BTW, Toyota is the most American car company based on U.S. parts content & number of vehicles sold.

http://www.cars.com/go/about/us.jsp?sec ... e=20090702 (http://www.cars.com/go/about/us.jsp?section=P&content=rel&date=20090702)

http://www.cars.com/go/advice/Story.jsp ... amMade0709 (http://www.cars.com/go/advice/Story.jsp?section=top&subject=ami&story=amMade0709)

Fuck the government for giving our tax money to GM to ship over our borders by the truck load.

Candians are only good for Hockey and well hockey. Let us americans build cars.

[Domestic Disturbance]

uuuh I find this list very hard to believe. I don't think theres a car out there with a list that big of issues. Looks like something someone sat down and made to try and dog on the car. Case in point
"049. Stickers on rockers peeling"

What stickers....?

"067. Missing or peeling paint between trunk lid and spoiler (right rear section)--could possibly spread over time down the trunk lid."

Take a look on the jams on a factory paint job, they dont just stop at the trunklid.

This is obviously a giant joke and frankly pretty ignorant to post IMO. They have had a few issues I know of but nothing like that. And the engines are made in america, assembled in canada, and the revenue, unlike toyota (who posted higher losses than GM last year) returns into the american economy.

Want to prove me wrong, go see one at a dealer, and show me these faults. This car has seen more R/D than I think any other car on the road right now as it was tested in the deserts in australia, to the cold in alaska. Very pathetic. I should go out with a notepad with the camry, "159. Smells like poop when I start it, might be because its made of complete shit." "4237. Says 'Welcome to Camry' on display every time I start it, assuming the average buyer is too dumb to remember what they are in (and they were probably hoping to forget)"

[slobalt]

I don't think this was on one car. Plus you know how anal some drivers are...

022 Trunk opens with switch and remote.
....... don't hit the switch or use the remote to open you trunk

023. Correct speedo/tach gauge ring color
.......... can't have everything bad

023. Ambient lighting on drivers door as bright as passenger door
......... I hate it when things are balanced too...

027. Shift knobs wearing out extremely fast could be faulty material
......... quit rubbing the shift knob like its your.... aww never mind

030 Trunk opens with remote and laser cut key
.......see 022

033. GFX installed correctly
.............. I hate it when that happens...

[JustinS]

I don't think this was on one car. Plus you know how anal some drivers are...

022 Trunk opens with switch and remote.
....... don't hit the switch or use the remote to open you trunk

023. Correct speedo/tach gauge ring color
.......... can't have everything bad

023. Ambient lighting on drivers door as bright as passenger door
......... I hate it when things are balanced too...

027. Shift knobs wearing out extremely fast could be faulty material
......... quit rubbing the shift knob like its your.... aww never mind

030 Trunk opens with remote and laser cut key
.......see 022

033. GFX installed correctly
.............. I hate it when that happens...
to me it seems like the list is of a bunch of stuff you need to check prior to purchasing one of the new camaros with a few rants thrown in. So 33 should read "make sure GFX is installed correctly" or something along those lines.

[McKeever]

....... and the revenue, unlike toyota (who posted higher losses than GM last year) returns into the american economy.........


lol, revenue, since when has GM made money on their cars?

[krustindumm]

The list was compiled by a 5th gen Camaro forum, and is all problems experienced by the owners. You might say that some are insignificant, but there should be none. Also, many of those problems are very significant.

There are actually other cars out there with *problem* lists that long, mostly GM's, Fords, and Chryslers. Just check out the TSB's sometime. I'm not discussing those, because everyone already knows the cars they have been building for the last 3 decades were mostly shit boxes. This Camaro is a new model that started production after GM made a commitment to improving quality as one of the conditions of being paid for failure.


the revenue, unlike toyota (who posted higher losses than GM last year) returns into the american economy.

The majority of the money goes to where the parts are manufactured and assembled, so Toyota wins that argument.

[SaNdMaNsSi]

Also DomesticDist. American cars have that really stupid welcome light too. I was just in a Buick Lucerne yesterday that did that when I turned the key. My first reaction was the same: What the hell? Like I don't know what car I just stepped into? Maybe its there to help the mechanics at Lithia remember which manual to pick up when working on one.

[black88gt]

waaaaaaaaa GM sucks

get the fuck off toyotas nuts and stop crying

/thread

[krustindumm]

Not a huge 'yota fan here, brah.

Just hating on GM for hating on America.

[Ricky]

pile of junk

[Domestic Disturbance]

Also DomesticDist. American cars have that really stupid welcome light too. I was just in a Buick Lucerne yesterday that did that when I turned the key. My first reaction was the same: What the hell? Like I don't know what car I just stepped into? Maybe its there to help the mechanics at Lithia remember which manual to pick up when working on one.

Haha doesn't surprise me. Most Buick buyers probably don't remember what they are in cause they're too old.

I'm not gonna argue with this all day, sounds like cry babies who made it and the jap circle jerk team moved in on it. LIke I said, go look at one and prove me wrong. Btw I read on the internet the other day they Camaros are proven to cause cancer

[Ricky]

Btw I read on the internet the other day they Camaros are proven to cause cancer



thats old news. been happing since 1997

however i have heard the new camaros makes your ego bigger and balls smaller. Sorry just the facts.

[krustindumm]

LIke I said, go look at one and prove me wrong.


Look at what? Camaro? Don't need to. I know that they don't support our economy after our taxes paid them for failing at being successful. What more is there to know?

BTW, both of my Honda cars were built right here in the US of A. Where were your GM's built?

[Domestic Disturbance]

Btw I read on the internet the other day they Camaros are proven to cause cancer



thats old news. been happing since 1997

however i have heard the new camaros makes your ego bigger and balls smaller. Sorry just the facts.

Haha yup thats how we all are. Bout as narrow minded as this thread. I think its the person not the car, but use whatever preconceived notions you have. Any of my friends reading this are probably laughing about you saying I have a big ego. As I recall theres a couple huge tools that are into hondas in this area, does that mean everyone into them are tools? I know Krumm especially knows after he practically had a car stolen, and was beat up.


Like I said, want to prove me wrong/back this thread, go look at one and see for yourself. Quit making excuses. Its not the end all be all of all cars ever made, but this is retarded. :banghead:

[Ricky]

Btw I read on the internet the other day they Camaros are proven to cause cancer



thats old news. been happing since 1997

however i have heard the new camaros makes your ego bigger and balls smaller. Sorry just the facts.

Haha yup thats how we all are. Bout as narrow minded as this thread. I think its the person not the car, but use whatever preconceived notions you have. Any of my friends reading this are probably laughing about you saying I have a big ego. As I recall theres a couple huge tools that are into hondas in this area, does that mean everyone into them are tools? I know Krumm especially knows after he practically had a car stolen, and was beat up.


Like I said, want to prove me wrong/back this thread, go look at one and see for yourself. Quit making excuses. Its not the end all be all of all cars ever made, but this is retarded. :banghead:


First off i never said you had a big ego and was not a personal attach. I like to stay neutral on this site. The thing posted was from camaro guys telling other people what to look for when buying a "new" camaro. my comments are just for fun but tends to offend someone.

[Domestic Disturbance]

ah sorry I took it as a personal attack. I realize you usually are neutral. Gotta love the internet.

[Drifte]

I see the point here anyway. GM took our tax money and ran...to Canada with it.

high five.

[tylers88]

Camaros have been built in Canada since 1993.

Yeah...and they retooled that factory while they are working on closing one in Kansas and one in Ohio.

Fuck GM.

BTW, Toyota is the most American car company based on U.S. parts content & number of vehicles sold.

http://www.cars.com/go/about/us.jsp?sec ... e=20090702 (http://www.cars.com/go/about/us.jsp?section=P&content=rel&date=20090702)

http://www.cars.com/go/advice/Story.jsp ... amMade0709 (http://www.cars.com/go/advice/Story.jsp?section=top&subject=ami&story=amMade0709)

Fuck the government for giving our tax money to GM to ship over our borders by the truck load.

And your still TEH HONDUH guy so whats your point

[JustinS]

epic lulz at domestic owners getting upset over the new shitty camaro.

[ZEE]

I see the point here anyway. GM took our tax money and ran...to Canada with it.

high five.

Everybody took the money and ran not just GM. Obama should have just kept his grubby radical socialist mits out of the economy. You can't fix things by printing money and throwing it at the problem. If it was that easy I'd be doing it.

[Drifte]

the idea of printing money and throwing it at my car seems almost equally as useless as what happened here.

why are you groaning still Talon? why?!!!

[bowtiebuba]

Honda problems

factory rust above rear wheels standard
stickers on rockers peeling
car transforms into giant dildo
1'' exhaust...
dash is not flat enough for autometer 5'' monster tack
pussy magnet factor -10
ken block does not drive a honda !!!!!

J/K
:yawinkle:

I actully dont mind hondas, but I love e thuging!!!! Its been awhile for a good e thug fest. but look how easy it is to make up stuff about something you dont like. :yawinkle:

[SaNdMaNsSi]

/\
Penis Problems
1-Grows shorter and shorter each year
2-Bumps can be seen on its surface (popping paint)
3-Used to run for hours, now only for minutes, but in both cases with the same sputtering and failing
4-Always shuts down before you want it to
5-Has bends in all the wrong places (not installed by the factory)
6-Just like cars, may contain rust.

[bowtiebuba]

one honda guy got but hurt so far. how many can be but hurt by the end of the day? 10 maybe? :biggrin:

[bowtiebuba]

/\
Penis Problems
1-Grows shorter and shorter each year
2-Bumps can be seen on its surface (popping paint)
3-Used to run for hours, now only for minutes, but in both cases with the same sputtering and failing
4-Always shuts down before you want it to
5-Has bends in all the wrong places (not installed by the factory)
6-Just like cars, may contain rust.
you sir are an e thug

[Domestic Disturbance]

roflmao

"but look how easy it is to make up stuff about something you dont like." QFT

[krustindumm]

I posted reliable sources for all of my information. So has...oh wait, only me. I didn't just start this thread to troll. I started it to inform, and because I like trolling. So far I'm the only one informing, pretty much everyone else is just bitching.

DomesticAbuse, I've posted proof that Toyota is more American. It is now your turn to post proof.

[SaNdMaNsSi]

I know I'm ethuggin. Just trying to be funny, not aimed at you.

[bowtiebuba]

I know I'm ethuggin. Just trying to be funny, not aimed at you.

lol lets start a e thug click bra

[bowtiebuba]

im liken this thread its pointless and funny, last i heard toyota is from japan... yes i know the trucks are made here along with some other models but there still just so ugly. lets not say i dont like toyotas i love supras ive had 2 89's and a 85 awsome built cars!

[Domestic Disturbance]

The arguement wasn't which was more American. It was over the initial meaning of this post. Actually researched it myself to see how common/real any of these problems are. Looking into it, which ones are actually REAL problems out of that checklist seem to be being resolved and a limited amount.

Here's I believe a valid point. Its the 1st year run, its bound to have small limited amount of issues. Few cars escape that. Not even the almighty Honda or Toyota. The latest model Tundra, Civic, Camry, Fit, etc all have multiple callbacks on their initial year.

For comparison, Camaro so far has 0 which isn't saying there isn't a possibility for any. I don't think theres any difference in the hesitation GM has compared to Honda and Toyota in recalls, with testing and laws as strict as they are.

Here's my VALID proof
Honda Civic
http://www.motortrend.com/cars/2006/hon ... index.html (http://www.motortrend.com/cars/2006/honda/civic/recalls/index.html)
Camaro
http://www.motortrend.com/used_cars/11/ ... index.html (http://www.motortrend.com/used_cars/11/chevrolet/camaro/recalls/index.html)

[Domestic Disturbance]

And the whole arguing which is more America is ridiculous. Toyota did worse last year than GM, they are more 'American' why weren't they considered for a bailout. Yes they build some vehicles here and I'm more than welcome to that idea, but the companies revenue does not return into the American Economy. Whether you supported the bailouts or not, the Big 3's importance on the economy here is much more longstand and relevant. Sweet my car was assembled in Canada, and the engine, along with many parts ( I know not all) made here.

Best thing I see here is the fact GM still makes a car that has some soul (not literally, fuckin kia...) as does Ford and Chrysler. There's not Honda that has a RWD V8 (but thats ok, torque doesn't matter). What's a new Civic SI run? Honda's top of the line s2000 barely hangs with GM's 4 banger sports car. Hell, theres a Cherokee and a Trailblazer that are faster than s2000s.

Because of the lack of actual high stress vehicles, Honda doesn't have to build nearly as durable parts. But keep throwing out as many disses as you can find, when there's something cool there's always gotta be haters. And If I beat you in one arguement, you'll change it to something else. Its ricer math, equated into ricer bullshit. I usually like and respect anything fast, but I don't respect bullshit. Atleast the company I support makes more than 1 car worth owning, and I don't have to take cheap shots at other companies for people to know it. I don't prowl the internet night and day scoping everything wrong with every car I don't like so I can run around crying wolf about how shitty they are.

So I'm gonna go back to enjoying what little time is left in the car world to enjoy, as I think the greatest lineup of production performance cars in my lifetime is available now. Camaro, Mustang, Challenger, Corvettes like the z06 zr1, and the fastest base model ever, TT awd v6 taurus, SS trailblazers and cobalts, STI's, Evos, CTSv, G8 gt/gxp, a bunch more stuff I'm sure. I dont drive my car everyday thinking look at all of you insignificant bitches, bow before my almighty camaro! Get off your high honda horse, and get over this petty shit.

[Drifte]

twin turbo taurus. I cant help but picture stros man pink 93.

[mystictealz28]

BTW, both of my Honda cars were built right here in the US of A. Where were your GM's built?[/quote]


i know im new here and probabnly starting shit. but whats the first letter of the vin on your hondas. if its a 1 its built in the USA if its J its Japan. Yes my camaro is built in canada. but thats where its assembled. with robit machines. its not like the canadians are actually assembling them. they just run the machines. but the last i checked the car was still made by a american designer in america. your honda was made by a honda designer in japan. As for toyota, subaru ect that have PLANTS in the US thats all it is. Just like GM has plants in canada. and dodge has plants in mexico ect ect. so i dont understand why its so wrong that gm has plants in other countries but toyota and honda and subaru are magically now made in the usa cause thats where they have a plant. :banghead:

[tylers88]

well you know what my gmc was assembled in wisconsin

[black88gt]

ford had a 2.3 billion dollar profit last quarter

[stangvortech]

hondas are gay and are good for gas mpg. nothing else........

[stangvortech]

at least gm is keeping the money in america.......

[SaNdMaNsSi]

^ I always love when people say "Hondas are gay." But if anyone says GM/Ford etc is gay, people come out of the woodwork. Hondas are only "gay" because you've never come across one worth its salt.

[DustinsDuster]

people diss Chrysler all the time, and im fine with it. its like a religion- the Anti-Chryslers...

[bowtiebuba]

lol as i posted before hondas are ok with me but some hondas kill all the honda rep and just make it gay. but i still know there are some hondas maybe even in this town that will rock my shit. lol id love to have a 92 hatch with a turbo h22, ya im comein out but hondas are the last car type for me really just havent been able to do the fwd 4 cyl thing yet but ive done inline 4 turbo, inline turbo 6 and non, lifted 4x4, awd, v8, superchargerd v8 nitrous v8, big boats and little shit boxes, everything but a honda, well i havent done a drift 240 yet. 17 cars and counting. wht will the next be?

[krustindumm]

at least gm is keeping the money in america.......


They are not, that is half the point of this thread. Read, then post.

[krustindumm]

i know im new here and probabnly starting shit. but whats the first letter of the vin on your hondas. if its a 1 its built in the USA if its J its Japan. Yes my camaro is built in canada. but thats where its assembled. with robit machines. its not like the canadians are actually assembling them. they just run the machines. but the last i checked the car was still made by a american designer in america. your honda was made by a honda designer in japan. As for toyota, subaru ect that have PLANTS in the US thats all it is. Just like GM has plants in canada. and dodge has plants in mexico ect ect. so i dont understand why its so wrong that gm has plants in other countries but toyota and honda and subaru are magically now made in the usa cause thats where they have a plant. :banghead:

Every car sold new has to have a window sticker that explains where the cars originated from based on parts cost. Toyota has a higher domestic content than GM. The major difference is that while Honda/Toyota/Nissan are moving production to the US, GM is moving out.

[krustindumm]

And the whole arguing which is more America is ridiculous. Toyota did worse last year than GM, they are more 'American' why weren't they considered for a bailout. Yes they build some vehicles here and I'm more than welcome to that idea, but the companies revenue does not return into the American Economy. Whether you supported the bailouts or not, the Big 3's importance on the economy here is much more longstand and relevant. Sweet my car was assembled in Canada, and the engine, along with many parts ( I know not all) made here.

Toyota was not considered for a bailout, because they did not request a bailout, because they did not need a bailout. Toyota may have posted higher losses last year, but they were profitable every year before that. Toyota IS more American than GM because they produce a higher percentage of their product in the US than GM does, and thus return a higher percentage of their gross income to the US economy.


Best thing I see here is the fact GM still makes a car that has some soul (not literally, fuckin kia...) as does Ford and Chrysler. There's not Honda that has a RWD V8 (but thats ok, torque doesn't matter). What's a new Civic SI run? Honda's top of the line s2000 barely hangs with GM's 4 banger sports car. Hell, theres a Cherokee and a Trailblazer that are faster than s2000s.

If by soul you mean RWD V8, then no. The S2000 and the NSX both have soul, just of a different kind. Maybe there are trucks that will outrun them in a straight line, but that is not what the cars were engineered for.


Because of the lack of actual high stress vehicles, Honda doesn't have to build nearly as durable parts. But keep throwing out as many disses as you can find, when there's something cool there's always gotta be haters. And If I beat you in one arguement, you'll change it to something else. Its ricer math, equated into ricer bullshit.

I'll change the argument? You're then one that keeps changing it. I'm raggin on GM, and you keep bringing in Honda. As for Honda not building as durable of parts....The stock trans in my 92hp Civic has been proven to over 500hp, the stock engine has been proven to over 300hp. I just tore down one with 160k on it, the cylinder walls were still crosshatched with no glazing, no out of round, and the bearings were all spotless (excluding the top-timing side main bearing).

/yourself

[Domestic Disturbance]

I argued the original point 1st, then went to this other point. I said atleast my company makes more than 1 car worth buying, cause the S2000 is a respectable car. NSX was. I believe I proved my point pretty well on my 2nd to last post on page 2. And arguing with a engine good to 300hp and a tranny good to 500 is odd. I realize those are high numbers for the vehicle in question, but that tranny has no torque being thrown at it of course it should take a decent amount. Still doesn't touch a t56 or tr6060, or even a 4l80e. Thats in heavier vehicles making a lot more hp and tq. This argument is going to go in circles. I already proved my point in the original meaning to this thread.

/yourself

[sparkles]

The big 3 wouldn't need bailouts and wouldn't send business overseas if it weren't for all of the foreign car companies competing with them here in the U.S. Your argument is senseless. I suppose you feel bad for Japan because Toyota, Honda, Nissan, and all the other dipshits are sending business here in the U.S. right? Point is, go back to before all of these bailouts and sending business out of country started. It's people like you that buy these vehicles in the first place that START the problem. GM, Chrysler, and Ford outsourcing was done out of necessity. How do you compete with car companies that have 12 year olds assembling cars for 1/5th of what the big 3 pay their employees?

You're bitching about what GM HAS to do to stay afloat AFTER their problems started. WTF do you want them to do? Spend themselves into oblivion? You must be one of Obama's little socialists.

Do yourself a favor and answer one thing. What should GM do to keep their company afloat in this shitty economic time that was partially caused by people (like you) that bought a foreign car in the first place and started the problem?

Toyota more American...give me a break.

[sparkles]

Oh BTW, as far as Canada goes, GSP rules. :hedbang:

[McKeever]

The big 3 wouldn't need bailouts and wouldn't send business overseas if it weren't for all of the foreign car companies competing with them here in the U.S. Your argument is senseless. I suppose you feel bad for Japan because Toyota, Honda, Nissan, and all the other dipshits are sending business here in the U.S. right? Point is, go back to before all of these bailouts and sending business out of country started. It's people like you that buy these vehicles in the first place that START the problem. GM, Chrysler, and Ford outsourcing was done out of necessity. How do you compete with car companies that have 12 year olds assembling cars for 1/5th of what the big 3 pay their employees?

You're bitching about what GM HAS to do to stay afloat AFTER their problems started. WTF do you want them to do? Spend themselves into oblivion? You must be one of Obama's little socialists.

Do yourself a favor and answer one thing. What should GM do to keep their company afloat in this shitty economic time that was partially caused by people (like you) that bought a foreign car in the first place and started the problem?

Toyota more American...give me a break.

I find it just a little ironic that your calling others "Obama's little socialists" after making it sound like your ani-free-market.

USDM Toyota's are made in the US, so how can you say that the cost of labor is why GM can't compete with Toyota?

I honestly don't think GM will ever be what they used to be, as long as they let the Union run their company.

[sparkles]

The big 3 wouldn't need bailouts and wouldn't send business overseas if it weren't for all of the foreign car companies competing with them here in the U.S. Your argument is senseless. I suppose you feel bad for Japan because Toyota, Honda, Nissan, and all the other dipshits are sending business here in the U.S. right? Point is, go back to before all of these bailouts and sending business out of country started. It's people like you that buy these vehicles in the first place that START the problem. GM, Chrysler, and Ford outsourcing was done out of necessity. How do you compete with car companies that have 12 year olds assembling cars for 1/5th of what the big 3 pay their employees?

You're bitching about what GM HAS to do to stay afloat AFTER their problems started. WTF do you want them to do? Spend themselves into oblivion? You must be one of Obama's little socialists.

Do yourself a favor and answer one thing. What should GM do to keep their company afloat in this shitty economic time that was partially caused by people (like you) that bought a foreign car in the first place and started the problem?

Toyota more American...give me a break.

USDM Toyota's are made in the US, so how can you say that the cost of labor is why GM can't compete with Toyota?

They're not an American company. Profits get spread throughout the company no matter which country they're made in. The majority of that company is in JAPAN. The whole "they have plants in the U.S. and employ Americans" doesn't matter. You're still supporting a JAPANESE company. End of story. Read that last statement over and over. You'll never have an argument that that disproves that. Period.

[McKeever]

The big 3 wouldn't need bailouts and wouldn't send business overseas if it weren't for all of the foreign car companies competing with them here in the U.S. Your argument is senseless. I suppose you feel bad for Japan because Toyota, Honda, Nissan, and all the other dipshits are sending business here in the U.S. right? Point is, go back to before all of these bailouts and sending business out of country started. It's people like you that buy these vehicles in the first place that START the problem. GM, Chrysler, and Ford outsourcing was done out of necessity. How do you compete with car companies that have 12 year olds assembling cars for 1/5th of what the big 3 pay their employees?

You're bitching about what GM HAS to do to stay afloat AFTER their problems started. WTF do you want them to do? Spend themselves into oblivion? You must be one of Obama's little socialists.

Do yourself a favor and answer one thing. What should GM do to keep their company afloat in this shitty economic time that was partially caused by people (like you) that bought a foreign car in the first place and started the problem?

Toyota more American...give me a break.

USDM Toyota's are made in the US, so how can you say that the cost of labor is why GM can't compete with Toyota?

They're not an American company. Profits get spread throughout the company no matter which country they're made in. The majority of that company is in JAPAN. The whole "they have plants in the U.S. and employ Americans" doesn't matter. You're still supporting a JAPANESE company. End of story. Read that last statement over and over. You'll never have an argument that that disproves that. Period.

I never said they were an American car company. I was refering to this comment you made:

How do you compete with car companies that have 12 year olds assembling cars for 1/5th of what the big 3 pay their employees?


The Toyota's in the US are not made buy 12 year olds, making minimum wage. So If GM got rid of the UAW they could better compete with the other companies.

[69gt4speed]

Some of the problem, a very small amount btw is $/hr pay, the big problem for gm is legacy costs. Toyota, honda, nissan plants here are located in southern states. The $/hr is a bit less. The only logical route for gm to take was bankrupcy to help eliminate legacy costs. Those others have very little legacy costs. Fords are smaller than chrysler or gm. Ford workers must die too quick or something.

I'm not getting into quality, I look at it like s.s. not enough new workers to pay for excess amount of retirees. And a lot of new workers work part time which doesn't pay good. So s.s is screwed like gm. Though I and others paid for yrs. and yrs. Not a happy thought.

One other thing I worked w koreans one time, over there the work conditions sucked. A engineer once told me if the machines didn't get fixed quick enough the supvr would take a board to you. He asked me if that is what american co. did. Granted that was 15yrs ago but still I sometimes wonder about hyundai, like poongsan.

[SaNdMaNsSi]

apoonsayswhat?

[sparkles]

So If GM got rid of the UAW they could better compete with the other companies.

That sir, you could have an argument with. I've personally worked for the IBEW and the UAW. Both have put bad tastes in my mouth as far as the word "union" is concerned. Overpaid and underworked IMO. Breeds laziness because of a sense of security.

[DJ0820]

The big 3 wouldn't need bailouts and wouldn't send business overseas if it weren't for all of the foreign car companies competing with them here in the U.S. Your argument is senseless. I suppose you feel bad for Japan because Toyota, Honda, Nissan, and all the other dipshits are sending business here in the U.S. right? Point is, go back to before all of these bailouts and sending business out of country started. It's people like you that buy these vehicles in the first place that START the problem. GM, Chrysler, and Ford outsourcing was done out of necessity. How do you compete with car companies that have 12 year olds assembling cars for 1/5th of what the big 3 pay their employees?

You're bitching about what GM HAS to do to stay afloat AFTER their problems started. WTF do you want them to do? Spend themselves into oblivion? You must be one of Obama's little socialists.

Do yourself a favor and answer one thing. What should GM do to keep their company afloat in this shitty economic time that was partially caused by people (like you) that bought a foreign car in the first place and started the problem?

"What you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."

Dumbest thing I have read in a while. The invisible hand of free market bitchslapped GM right into bankruptcy. Take an economics class. Years of bad business practices got them painted into this corner. Blaming their competitors? I really hope you aren't serious. If not for those competitors we would all have to become mechanics.

[69gt4speed]

apoonsayswhat?

That's the parent co. of pmx located here. Also might of heard of pmc cartridges for pistols and rifles. Pmx was run by one of the ryu's. Basically the culture was ryu was the father, workers were the kids, they might need a few beatings when bad or not working like they should. You would sing a song to ryu/co each day at start of shift at the home plants. Sounds great...

Like I said gm filed to get rid of legacy costs.. ppl drawing pension and health insurance which make nothing and draw wages and benefits. Be like gov. saying ok old ppl we are ending s.s. and medicare u are on your own. Those other jap co. have very lil u.s. retirees and prob mostly a 401k w some co. matching, idk. Pensions are out these days, but the big 3 are stuck w them. You wait s.s. will be going this way, its too expensive. heck they already moved up age requirements and hope you and spouse are dead.

[sparkles]

Take an economics class. Years of bad business practices got them painted into this corner. Blaming their competitors? I really hope you aren't serious. If not for those competitors we would all have to become mechanics.

Already did, years ago, but thanks. Supply and demand. I get what the main point is. GM over supplied shitty built vehicles and the demand for them vs. foreign "better made" cars wasn't as high. Yeah, got it.

Obviously, you're just as narrow minded as everybody else on the other side of the topic and can't pull your head out of your ass longer than 5 seconds and take a look at a bigger
picture.

MY POINT
People bitching about GM sending business out of the US being the same people that bought a foreign car. Hmmm...makes perfect sense. You wanna buy it? Fine. But don't take it out on GM for doing what they have to do to stay competitive...or this day in age, in business at all.

Read and engage your brain before you respond.

[Drifte]

my cars made in america. I bought it, and dont like gm's business practice. I get no benifit really from their faults that are taking away from out country.

[DJ0820]

MY POINT
People bitching about GM sending business out of the US being the same people that bought a foreign car. Hmmm...makes perfect sense. You wanna buy it? Fine. But don't take it out on GM for doing what they have to do to stay competitive...or this day in age, in business at all.

Read and engage your brain before you respond.

No. It stems from a "too big to fail" belief. GM gets tax dollars from US govt. because they think that GM failing will spell doom for the economy or something to that extent. Instead of using that money to get their shit together here, they use that money outside of US borders. GM failed in the free market, Govt failed because of the "too big to fail" belief, taxpayers lose and get to watch their tax dollars at work in other countries. This is what the original poster was getting at. Sorry you confuse being narrow-minded with being an educated consumer, can't really help you with that one. It wasn't my narrow-mindedness that drove GM into bankruptcy. The proof is in the pudding.

[sparkles]

Sounds like you need to call up your congressman and bitch them out then. A company that's known to fail for having bad business practices is just handed money with NO consequences, plan, or obligation for paying it back, and you're surprised when the money is gone and not spent the way YOU want it. Sounds like your upset with the wrong people.

Try looking at it from a different perspective at least like I've been trying to. I understand the argument. Just don't think your looking at the BIG picture. GM isn't the lonely one to blame for what is a fucked up deal for US taxpayers. US meaning you AND I.

[DJ0820]

Oh I whole heartedly disagree with the bailouts. And GM is responsible for the money that GM is given, whether I want them to have it or not.

[krustindumm]

Lol, that was epic.

You are only considering the profits from the car sales, and yes, part of the profit goes back to Japan, though technically American Honda is a partner of Honda Research Institute company, LTD. (Toyota Motor North America has a similar relationship to Toyota Motor Corporation). You are only considering the PROFIT though, which is a relatively minor portion of the purchase price of the car. The rest of it, what it actually costs to build the car, is where money enters our economy. The cost of transportation and manufacture, of all of the parts that make up the car. That is mostly wages to workers, and Toyota puts more of that into our economy than any other company (Honda is #4, being ahead of Chrysler). Also, both Toyota & Honda are traded on the New York Stock Exchange.

GM has the exact opposite relationship, where they contract the parts to be built in foreign countries, and then assemble the whole car in another foreign country. Part of the profit stays here, but that is minor compared to the costs, which is paid out as wages to foreign workers. It would be better to hire illegal immigrants to work factories in the United States, because even though they would be underpaid, they would at least spend the money on food/housing/etc.. and keep it in OUR economy.