Gm world... good and bad news

[69gt4speed]

I'll just post this as I don't know all the details...

When General Motors announced the demise and death of their High Performance Vehicle Operations it quickly put a bad taste in a lot of hopeful 2010 Camaro SS owners who saw their dreams of owning a new Camaro SS crumbling right before there eyes. Fortunately for those owners, GM spokesman Vince Muniga stepped up to the plate and told Edmunds Inside Line they will go ahead with plans to produce the 2010 Camaro SS.

Vince Muniga also goes on to say the "Camaro SS, Corvette ZR1 and Corvette Z06 are all regularly engineered cars," and "They did not go through HPVO. Most people did not realize that. They are safe." Performance vehicles under the HPVO umbrella which got the axe include the Cadillac CTS-V, Cobalt SS and HHR SS. HPVO employed some 60 engineers working at GM's Warren Tech Center. Instead of laying off those engineers GM will place them in other parts of the organization.

[Jappbox]

All i know is i went looking at a few dealerships, ad I know why they are bankrupt....saw 12 black impalas, 8 silver malibues... and this was just as 1 dealership! haveing so many is retarded... Drove though that "westdale super store, and all I saw was almost brand new GM stuff.... Boring... I see why the want another 21 Billion.. The Government should just buy them.

[Domestic Disturbance]

thats a shame to see the new cts-v go. really is a monster of a car. 4200lbs and runs mid 12's. Want to see too many vehicles? Check out nissan's testing grounds

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/093Ubvzd1OcGK/340x.jpg

[DJ0820]

Was listening to NPR yesterday at lunch and GM is in a real bad way. Their expert guest of the hour was saying GM needs to kill off basically everything but Chevy and that they have been denying the problems they have been having for the last decade at least. They are the largest buyer of health care in the nation due to the pensions and legacy costs so that is $$ down the drain. Then again, they could stop producing cars altogether today and they still won't be completely dead. There are something like 30 million GM autos on the road today, if not more. They need parts, maintenance, etc. GM has spun off companies that produce parts (ie American Axle I believe, among others) so that might come into play if they do a chapter 11 to restructure.

Ford is apparently addressing their problems but still are in a bad way. I don't think they talked too much about Ford.

Chrysler is being run into the ground by the same guy that got kicked out of Home Depot for running them into the ground. Their problems are all at the corporate level, as they supposedly producing their best products, quality-wise, in years. The expert guest on NPR was really fuming about Chrysler putting this clown in charge. The guest suspected that they might have done that to liquidate, I think the fact that Chrysler is privately held also plays into that decision.

Honda, Toyota, Nissan have yet to catch up with the pension/legacy deal as they have a much younger American workforce and have had much shorter presence on this side of the pond.

[69gt4speed]

At gm that's pretty much the deal, 2 out of 3 workers are retirees. Chrysler and esp ford workers must die off quick or work till they are practically dead. I'm only going on statistics. Don't shoot me. Health/pension costs on retirees are eating them up. But crap you work somewhere for yrs and get promised benefits, just cut them off or what? Easy for some of you at early age to say fk them but what if ur parents? You gonna let them move in? Or move in to their place and help pay the bills? My neighbors did this last option.

[black88gt]

http://money.cnn.com/2009/03/05/news/co ... /index.htm (http://money.cnn.com/2009/03/05/news/companies/GM_10K/index.htm)

more bad; their viability even with loans isnt looking good

[Drifte]

Okay, I have problem with GM, because I know their history involving alternative energy vehicles, and because my GF has an Alero (don't even get me started on that mistake).
Then I read this:
"GM received $13.4 billion so far, and it has asked for up to $16.6 billion more. In addition, it is seeking $7.7 billion in loans to convert production from light trucks to more fuel efficient cars under an Energy Department loan program."

Really, they are playing the "we're trying to save the earth" card now?!!! And then..basically threatening us (any tax payers!) with this:
"If we fail to obtain sufficient funding for any reason, we would not be able to continue as a going concern and could potentially be forced to seek relief under the U.S. Bankruptcy Code,"

[Domestic Disturbance]

Haha, getting your panties in a bunch over what the auto industry has taken is a little ridiculous honestly. Been watching the banks lately, hello AIG.

Hope GM can hold out till they get the VOLT chassis out. A hybrid that doesn't scream fag? No way!

[Drifte]

Haha, getting your panties in a bunch over what the auto industry has taken is a little ridiculous honestly. Been watching the banks lately, hello AIG.

Hope GM can hold out till they get the VOLT chassis out. A hybrid that doesn't scream fag? No way!

Well considering the environment and the money, it is everyones business and important. The volt coming out would be a surprise. Honda accord, honda civic, toyota camry..just to name a few seem like nice cars to me. The car I assume you deam the stereotypical "fag" car would be the Prius? At 40+ easy mpg you should be thankful someone cares enough to drive such an ugly car.

[Domestic Disturbance]

Haha, getting your panties in a bunch over what the auto industry has taken is a little ridiculous honestly. Been watching the banks lately, hello AIG.

Hope GM can hold out till they get the VOLT chassis out. A hybrid that doesn't scream fag? No way!

Well considering the environment and the money, it is everyones business and important. The volt coming out would be a surprise. Honda accord, honda civic, toyota camry..just to name a few seem like nice cars to me. The car I assume you deam the stereotypical "fag" car would be the Prius? At 40+ easy mpg you should be thankful someone cares enough to drive such an ugly car.

A car that causes more pollution in its production than any v8. Yup, jealous of the prius. "caring" enough to drive one seems more like smug enough. Econo-cars are the future, theres no denying it. But yes, prius, and the new honda clone of it this year (dont remember the name) are both ugly. I get more scolding looks for prius's than anything else, and I pray they can taste the exhaust fumes as I go by. And to honestly say that GM isn't environmetally sound? Have you seen how many of their vehicles are rated equal/above the competition in MPG. I'm so tired of hearing this Toyota/Honda greater than thou bullshit. It's mostly played out and with no factual basis.

GM tried an electric car market once, but it got 0 gov't support and bombed. Thats why they've been sitting on a hydrogen cell platform for I think 8 years now. Mercedes also has an extremely durable hydrogen chassis, but they are in that same boat. Honda will find out soon enough in California that without some huge movement towards hydrogen, it'll drain money and go bust.

These 2 videos sum up my opinion on prius's.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vKI8X0z1KAs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKTOyiKLARk

[Drifte]

I work for the center for energy and environmental education and am fairly educated on the subject at hand. Opinions vary for appearance, point being was responsibility.

You can educated yourself off youtube if you like. A few videos I found interesting were "Car of the Future" and "Who Killed the Electric Car."

[ZEE]

The majority of the public is not ready to shell out money for a hybrid or hydrogen or whatever green car so it will surely bomb just like the rest of them. And GM wants the government to foot as much of the bill as they can, for these so called green cars because they know it is a money losing proposition that is doomed to fail. The Gov wants them to build cars that nobody will buy. So why would GM throw their own money away.

[black88gt]

I work for the center for energy and environmental education and am fairly educated on the subject at hand. Opinions vary for appearance, point being was responsibility.

You can educated yourself off youtube if you like. A few videos I found interesting were "Car of the Future" and "Who Killed the Electric Car."

what of the huge carbon footprint to hybrids and the fact that their "dust to dust" carbon impact is much higher and sometimes double that of conventional gasoline cars?

simply looking at their mpg use and ignoring the huge impact on the environment these cars incur in their production and disposal is very short-sighted and is a simply "propaganda"

[Drifte]

Well my argument was not that hybrid cars are the answer. I was disagreeing with GM playing the environmentalist card. Black 88gt your talking about purchasing carbon offsets which accomplish what? I am the guy that would but the cheap efficient gasoline car. If I could afford an electric (not hybrid) car that's what I would drive. I am not starting an argument over what alternative energy sources are the answer. I want people to look into Gm's history and see that they were the ones in the wrong and are now suffering from that. GM is following, not leading. Our real problem today is our own use of electricity. I am reminded of this everyday as I live next to UNI's power plant. Which btw, I thought was going to blow yesterday, I should load that video.

[ZEE]

They are heading towards bankruptcy (about time) and the government is mandating greener and alternative fuel cars. There is no way they can afford such a large change in product line with out government help. GM doesn't want to make those cars. The government does. So there for why don't they pay for the financial risk instead of forcing the car manufacturer to risk the money they don't have.

[krustindumm]

saving GM is pointless. They wasted the first $13bil, they will wast the next.

Let them go out of business so new companies can emerge. If they declare bankruptcy the no longer have to pay legacy costs, which are federally insured. The people get their retirement funds, the gov't still pays.

[69gt4speed]

^Yea looks like the solution at this point. :Hangman:

Like 88gt mentioned (maybe not) there is about one country that has lithium in quantity.. On the other hand elect would be great if we had star trek tech energy storage. u ever seen those phaser pistols overload? lol

Cheap huge elect energy storage in small light package has always been the bottleneck in any real eco plan... sun, wind, car. W/o that we are screwed cause none of that works all the time. With that solution we could have it made, the rest of our stuff will do. So far hydrocarbons store more energy in a small light package.

[DJ0820]

Just put down the new Consumer Reports and there's no surprise they're in the shitter. I think the big three occupied three of the bottom four places. Honda on top yet again...

[Domestic Disturbance]

So as far as I can tell the G8 GXP, cobalt SS, and cts-v are all still available at their respective sites (didn't look up hhr ss). Are they really cancelled? Or just not yet?

[DJ0820]

A car that causes more pollution in its production than any v8.

How about the 10+ years they are on the road? Or will the new Hummers even last that long?


I'm so tired of hearing this Toyota/Honda greater than thou bullshit. It's mostly played out and with no factual basis.

Pick up a consumer reports or look at some JD Power ratings. They aren't the top car manufacturers because people like the sound of their name.


GM tried an electric car market once, but it got 0 gov't support and bombed.

Maybe GM should mean Government Motors...that's who is financing all of their ventures anyway. The Volt will most likely be a shitbox like the rest of their product line.

[Domestic Disturbance]

[Pick up a consumer reports or look at some JD Power ratings. They aren't the top car manufacturers because people like the sound of their name.
...

Maybe GM should mean Government Motors...that's who is financing all of their ventures anyway. The Volt will most likely be a shitbox like the rest of their product line.

JD Power best in initial quality??? Think thats the new Chevrolet Malibu and Silverado. Guess those don't count? I guess that shitbox standard won't be good enough for volt. Funny hearing shit talk about quality when anytime I've seen the inside of a 2000 civic I think wow someone made a cheaper interior than my car.

Or how our seinna, after 3 transmissions finally had the wiring harness go bad, which cost more than the value of it. Or my family's 07 Camry, with just over 30k on the clock and can't make up its mind when to shift, so it just keeps shifting. Yup, best there is right there :Hangman: Also probably the worst ergonomic vehicle we've ever owned, but thats mostly opinion I suppose. Shame my cadillac with over 400k miles rides and drives better, and is more comfortable.

And like I said before, the Hydrogen market with gov't backing won't take off. Honda can try all they want. It would either take major collaboration of the car companies which none of them have money for, or a huge gov't push.

So anyone know about the HPVO cars still being made? I really haven't been able to find anything saying they weren't.

[snickerlicker]

X2. I agree with you. Been around plenty of imports with lots of problems.

[tractioncontrol]

[Pick up a consumer reports or look at some JD Power ratings. They aren't the top car manufacturers because people like the sound of their name.
...

Maybe GM should mean Government Motors...that's who is financing all of their ventures anyway. The Volt will most likely be a shitbox like the rest of their product line.

JD Power best in initial quality??? Think thats the new Chevrolet Malibu and Silverado. Guess those don't count? I guess that shitbox standard won't be good enough for volt. Funny hearing shit talk about quality when anytime I've seen the inside of a 2000 civic I think wow someone made a cheaper interior than my car.

Or how our seinna, after 3 transmissions finally had the wiring harness go bad, which cost more than the value of it. Or my family's 07 Camry, with just over 30k on the clock and can't make up its mind when to shift, so it just keeps shifting. Yup, best there is right there :Hangman: Also probably the worst ergonomic vehicle we've ever owned, but thats mostly opinion I suppose. Shame my cadillac with over 400k miles rides and drives better, and is more comfortable.

And like I said before, the Hydrogen market with gov't backing won't take off. Honda can try all they want. It would either take major collaboration of the car companies which none of them have money for, or a huge gov't push.

So anyone know about the HPVO cars still being made? I really haven't been able to find anything saying they weren't.


Interesting Honda coment. You just compared a CIVIC to your car, Last I recall you don't drive a Cavalier/Cobalt so it's not really a fair compairison.

Your Sienna tranny problem I'm guessing was either self inflicted or a wiring problem the whole time, they just don't go bad with proper maintence. The check engine light associated with Toyota trannies are usually something that tells us the tranny is shot most of the time because people don't do a tranny service for 100k+

The 07 Camary shifting issue is a fuel milage thing you are complaining about, the vehicle is trying to stay in the fuel cut and you are in too high of an rpm in one gear and too low of an rpm in the next, try going a little faster (there is also a reprogram that will smooth it out if it hasn't already been done). Pathetic to say it happens right at 35 miles per hour (I also have an 07) the sluggish off the line when cold (mostly) is more annoying with Toyotas horrible drive by wire crap. Toyotas used to have a good reputation untill the started computer simulating prototypes instead of building them which has now changed as of 2009, once again all prototypes are built and test run to find these sorts of problems.

Fuel cell technology won't happen or won't work here at least. Water freezes and we live in Iowa. When the fuel cell vehicle drives it dumps water onto the road so unless they create a storage tank for the water ommitted you won't see one here. Toyota has a fuel cell vehicle and it can be your for $750k, Honda isn't the only one.

GM will be closing it's sport car division because they can meet the new production law changes, that's what I am told. They are dinosaurs let them go extinct, for the last ten or more years while the world/car market evolved they tried to stay the same and produce the same cars. I do believe the have good quality vehicles compared to others (yes I am including Toyota).

[Domestic Disturbance]

The 07 Camary shifting issue is a fuel milage thing you are complaining about, the vehicle is trying to stay in the fuel cut and you are in too high of an rpm in one gear and too low of an rpm in the next, try going a little faster (there is also a reprogram that will smooth it out if it hasn't already been done). Pathetic to say it happens right at 35 miles per hour (I also have an 07) the sluggish off the line when cold (mostly) is more annoying with Toyotas horrible drive by wire crap.


Ya thats exactly what it does. Is the reprogram covered with a warranty? Its actually the first camry I've really had a problem with. I think I've been in the past 4 different styles and all of them show reason why they have such a great reputation.

Can definitely tell I was kind of on a drunk rant when I wrote that. Kinda ramble on and get defensive. Its like arguing politics, no point in the end.

[Drifte]

I dont know if anyone followed it. But George Bush and friends decided to back the hydrogen cars a good while ago. Anything else seemed like a good idea, but he chose hydrogen...can anyone guess or know why? (I dont actually remember)

[tractioncontrol]

Yes it is covered under warranty, it smooths out the shifting, it may still shift up and down but it is less noticeable.

Hydrogen is a fairly rare element on earth. Hydrogen may be produced from water by electrolysis and water is fairly common.

[DJ0820]

Damn, I have to stop trusting companies that review/ road test cars for a living/business. Silly me.

Consumer Reports bottom 4 car manufacturers......Ford, Suzuki, GM, Chrysler. Hmm must be a fluke.

Wanna know the only low point that Honda got? Road Noise. As far as the big three, it was reliability, fit and finish, blah blah blah

Oh and here is the JD power chart you were looking for....3 year dependability:
http://www.jdpower.com/autos/ratings/dependability-ratings-by-brand

Shit, Consumer Reports has a chart of 40+ best buy cars of different genres and not one American car made the list.

[Domestic Disturbance]

On the chart you posted Lincoln, Buick, Cadillac, and Mercury are all in the top in overall reliability.

And what list, or even what Consumer Reports are you reading from? If you are talking about top cars for the year, Z06 is up there. Or top picks 2009 for this year, Avalanche is the top truck. Or Best and worst used cars, I see more than a couple in the best category.
http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/cars ... d-cars.htm (http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/cars/used-cars/cr-recommended/best-and-worst-used-cars/overview/best-and-worst-used-cars.htm)

Seriously you can look up all the shit you want to, and so can I. I could care less about any turd farm honda just as much as you could about anything domestic. So please STFU cause really this is getting nowhere. I don't even know why we are arguing over these boring ass cars, this is like jerking off to the worlds highest quality minivans. wooo hooooo...

[DJ0820]

The consumer reports I am sourcing is the new one that just came in the mail but a week or so ago. I tried to look the article up online but you need the subscription info and whatnot. Look at it on a newstand, it sure ain't pretty for the big three.

EDIT: Whoa just read that chart you link....seriously, 6 out 70?!

You must have been confused and were looking at the worst of the worst list at the bottom.

Looks like the RX-8 is the only Jap car on the worst of the worst list. Rotary turd.