bail them out or not? Big 3

[69gt4speed]

What's ur opinion. Give the big 3 the bridge loans or not? Now know they are asking from the original bailout money a portion for their credit agencies, gmac, ford credit and whatever chrysler is. Cause ppl need loan money to buy a new car. I believe they also are getting some money for fuel efficient vehicles. Correct me if I'm wrong. This decision could effect millions of ppl.

[ZacFields]

I think you bail out the "financial" portions of those companies, but nothing else. That sounds cold, but here is why I feel that way:

The financial markets are in turmoil not necessarily due to their own lack of good strategy. The financial markets are suffering because through some amazing loophole (the way I see it anyways), nasty lending corporations were able to offer ridiculous adjustable rate sub-prime mortgages, take the $7,000 or $8,000 closing cost on a loan that the borrower actually can't afford, and then sell that loan to another bank or lending institution and push the risk on to them.

The big three are in trouble due to mismanagement. Let's face it, even before this most recent recession, the big three have been under performing for years. Ever since I started investing, stock of the big three has been in a steady decline for the most part. Why? Personally I think it has a lot to do with quality. These import companies are consistently increasing their market share because they're selling cars that in general are just flat-out more reliable than the domestics out there.

There are exceptions to every rule. For instance, Ford's Mustang is a good vehicle. Chevrolet's Corvette is a good vehicle. The biggest problem is that the cars that are most popular are the ones that the big 3 cut corners on. Starting in 2000, the Ford Focus had a problem with the ignition cylinder. As early as 15,000 miles on many vehicles, it would just seize up and stop working. You could pay $500 and the dealer would put a new one on, and then within 60,000 miles it would happen again. I read a story today about someone that went through 6 of them in 7 years! The shit of it was that between 2000 and 2006, Ford never found an alternative. Google "Ford Focus Ignition" and you'll see hundreds of people swearing up and down that they'll never buy another Ford again.

That happened to me today with my 2003 Focus. yes, they also kept putting the exact same ignition cylinder in them right up until 2005 or 2006 I believe. Personally for me, it's not a big deal. This car has been the best car I've ever owned. Zero engine problems and the car drives great for an economy car... I'd rather have this stupid ignition problem than an engine problem. At least they have aftermarket ignition cylinders now that won't fail again.

I would bail the big 3 out under one condition: Total overhaul of their strategy. I want to see what they're going to do to beat out Nissan, Honda, and Toyota. I don't want to blindly give them money just to delay the inevitable bankruptcy of their businesses. I want to see improvement. I don't want those people to lose their jobs, but I don't want to help a business that's not helping themselves.

[Drifte]

^ Yea I like how you put that Zac. The story of the focus sounds a lot like GM's Alero, Or chryslers (jeeze everything suspension related?, trannies) Intrepid. I was watching the news and all these business guys were picketing. I couldnt help but notice their expensive leather jackets, and fancy clothes. Made me think, a lot of these people are probably rolling inn money...

I'd like to see what the plan is to change before we throw money at a problem. (pretty much what zac said.)

[Xboosted23X]

i think they should bail them out some what. but if they do how many other companies will ask for money, and where will it stop.
i think they need to set some stipulations. if they get the money they have to build a certain vehicle. and they need to reassess there management.
2.5 million jobs is alot and that is the biggest reason i think they should get bailed out. the country is already at high unemployment rate and i don't think another 2.5 would be good

[black88gt]

ford has made a few steps in the right direction and this is probably why theyre better off than the other two. the fusion is has been beating corrola and camry in quality and reliability for the past couple years, and ford is now promising 5 mpg better than corrala and camry hybrids w/ the fusion hybrid. ford will also begin importing the fiesta from europe, and is supposed to be good competition for the fit. long story short ford is starting to put more effort into their "run of the mill" cars it seems.

this has been my biggest gripe w/ GM. look at the engineering that goes into the corvette and look at the engineering that goes into the aveo or impala. GM has far too many garbage filler cars, pontiac being one of the main offenders w/ the g series, barring the g8.

[ZacFields]

Good news about the Focus. We got the new ignition cylinder installed by a locksmith today so we should be set to go. Digging around on the internet last night, I've found that the aftermarket ones never screw up, and the aftermarket part is $38 as compared to like $110 for the improved Ford version.

Personally I love my Focus. That car has been outstanding for us and I will most definitely buy a Ford again one day. I may not feel the same way if my ignition cylinder was seizing every year like some others have had, but since it wont, I am happy!

Colton: I can't remember where I read this, but I read that the average salary for an auto worker is somewhere between $60,000-$70,000. Personally, I think they deserve to be paid well. I have the utmost respect for factory workers and think they deserve every penny they earn. However, I do think the UAW is a major factor here. It is widely known that unions drive companies to move jobs overseas, but domestic auto companies don't really have that option because it's too expensive to ship a car overseas.

[DJ0820]

Hell no, they got themselves into this shit. They need to do as any other unsuccessful business would do and declare bankruptcy and close up shop. I believe I heard part of a news snippet with one of the big three saying now that it is a "matter of national security". Hilarious. Honda, Toyota, etc make cars in the USA now, they aren't pieces of shit and as companies they are all doing fine, hell they are even PROFITABLE. The UAW sucked their teet dry and now they are paying the consequences. The word of the day is appeasement. :goodman: :banghead:


It is widely known that unions drive companies to move jobs overseas, but domestic auto companies don't really have that option because it's too expensive to ship a car overseas.

That's why they just ship them back across the Canadian and Mexican borders...

[ZacFields]

I can always count on you to say what I'm thinking Derek, albeit in a much more blunt and offensive way. :) LOL

Look, there will always be domestic vehicles built in the United States. If one of them goes bankrupt, another one will just buy them out, shut down some factories (or temporarily suspend production in some factories) and that company will be stronger.

Could part of the problem be that we just have too many different auto manufacturers in America for each one to be successful? Cars are lasting longer these days than they were before. It could very well be that auto sales in general have peaked and that the corporations just need to be downsized a bit and the UAW needs to relax a little. I think these 2.5 million workers would rather take a pay cut of a dollar an hour or so than to lose their jobs alltogether.

[NewSpeedSteed]

Good news about the Focus. We got the new ignition cylinder installed by a locksmith today so we should be set to go. Digging around on the internet last night, I've found that the aftermarket ones never screw up, and the aftermarket part is $38 as compared to like $110 for the improved Ford version.

Personally I love my Focus. That car has been outstanding for us and I will most definitely buy a Ford again one day. I may not feel the same way if my ignition cylinder was seizing every year like some others have had, but since it wont, I am happy!

Colton: I can't remember where I read this, but I read that the average salary for an auto worker is somewhere between $60,000-$70,000. Personally, I think they deserve to be paid well. I have the utmost respect for factory workers and think they deserve every penny they earn. However, I do think the UAW is a major factor here. It is widely known that unions drive companies to move jobs overseas, but domestic auto companies don't really have that option because it's too expensive to ship a car overseas.


Its nuts what US Auto workers make; between $60-80 an hour (I think the average is $68-74 an hour) while the 'big 3' in Japan (Honda, Nissan and Toyota) workers make around $45 an hour.

[snickerlicker]

Car sales are down foreign or domestic. Honda just dumped its F1 racing team to try and tighten its ship. Said they could be losing money soon also. What goes around comes around, if sales are down 40% you better have very deep pockets to ride it out. Its only a matter of time until they end up in the shitter too. Will everybody blame that on mismanagement and non reliable cars? Trust me there are plenty of problems with the import manufactures cars, from Toyota Camry V6 motors sludging up, rusted out frames, etc....

[Urban Legend]

I think these 2.5 million workers would rather take a pay cut of a dollar an hour or so than to lose their jobs alltogether.


When it comes down to it that's not a bad idea. But it better go up the ladder as well, and cut some bonuses too, if they really care about making it.

[ZacFields]

I think these 2.5 million workers would rather take a pay cut of a dollar an hour or so than to lose their jobs alltogether.


When it comes down to it that's not a bad idea. But it better go up the ladder as well, and cut some bonuses too, if they really care about making it.

Well when you think about it, with the possibility of losing their jobs glaring them in the face, I wouldn't be surprised to see some pay cuts and the workers ought to be happy if that means the companies would be saved. If they really are making $60-$80 per hour as Nate says, we're talking $120,000 to $160,000 per year. That is a bit much. They should be able to take a bit smaller wages than that. That's a problem with the UAW if you ask me.

When profits are high, unions want to squeak out the absolute maximum amount of money they can out of these big corporations. Often times, it causes the corporation to start outsourcing jobs to foreign countries. From a worker's standpoint, it sounds pretty good. If the business is making big money, you should be making big money, right? But EVERY product goes through it's growth stage, it's peak, and its decline. After a product has hit it's peak and starts to decline (even temporarily), you're seeing the company losing 40 or 50% of it's profits, but the unions don't let the company cut wages by 40 or 50% to compensate for it.

The end result is what you're seeing. Once market share starts to drop, revenues drop, profits drop, but you're still paying wages to your employees that were set when your company was booming. It's not until the union is backed against a wall that it will start to do anything about it...not until they're faced with a "lower wages or be laid off" ultimatum. It's sad that it has to get to that stage, though.

[69gt4speed]

Thank you very much for your comments and continue. Couple of things I like to say I'll make it short.

Number 1 is the big 3 built stuff we wanted that got crap for mileage always have. Gas went through the roof along w no credit, foreclosures and well ppl didn't buy and it takes a couple of yrs to retool. So they are screwed somewhat cause of us. I've harped on this more than once cause I've seen it before. Toyota and nissan full truck sales suck too. No way you can make a 5k# truck/suv vehicle get mileage compared to a economy light car, never will w equal tech.

As far as pay goes here's some numbers.. very close, but look at huge gm retiree numbers vs toyota usa and yes gm has better benefits. That's what is boosting pay per hr avg imo as retiree pay is overhead. So lets not get on workers too hard. Retirees, I don't know what to do. I agree ceo and board members should take their hit along w upper management bonuses. Zero... No retro either.
http://www.npr.org/news/specials/gmvstoyota/

[fbodyguy]

w/o reading others responses, two words, "Domino effect".

[Fire Hawk]

The big 3 CEO's are talking about working for $1 next year, I think that's only next year alone. I sit at work and get to read about what's going on inbetween calls. The #'s that people are throwing out that about $70+/hr are all the benefits combined for the big 3 workers when you add it up (UAW workers). Non union workers in the south for the "foreign" companies are bout $45/hr with all the benefits. UAW workers still drawing 95% of their pay from a Job bank when their not work?!?! The UAW has stepped in saying that they can give up stuff and post pone payments that are due very soon to help the big 3.

Last night sitting at Carlos O' Kelly's I overheard 2 couples talking about the Big 3 and the Assholes - (CEO's) flying in on corporate jets with the "Golden Tin Cup" asking for money without a plan. I could not help but LMAO. It was classic!

There is a lot of stuff that's happening from multiple areas that's hurting not only the big 3 but the other auto makers too. Japan is now in a recession along with I think Europe. I've read that analysts have stated even if we throw some money to them now.... It's going to cost about $125 billon over the next 2 years to help them thru everything their going to encounter. I've read that the government may try to force a merger with GM & Chrysler as one option to help keep them a float a little longer. Time will tell here but I think the big 3 are done riding the high horse of fat cash and need to be brought back down to the real world.

I don't know if it was so much as just Ford only, but I've read that Ford when they count their world sales #'s is just the # of vehicle's they FORCE onto the dealers. Not actually sold to customers. Ford makes the dealers take vehicles wether they can use/need them or not. The big 3 also sold a lot of vehicles as Fleet Vehicles, which drops the resale values, trying to gain market share which has also bit them in the ass.

I work For TFS & love it! I've always been a fan of GM & Ford myself, and don't want to see them go under cause it's going to have a huge ripple affect world wide. I just dont feel the need to help pay them to keep going to only have the same thing happen again down the road cause they got greedy (CEO's, Upper management, UAW).


Caption a bunch of stuff I felt like sharing for info that could be useful and tried to touch on a few comments from above. I don't want to give them money unless they can pull their heads out of the high horses' butt and do stuf right!

[69gt4speed]

Here's the proof I was looking for, the big 3 add in retirees cost for total labor costs. Example you have 1000 real working employees and 1000 retirees at 30/hr. Total labor cost is then 60/hr as calculated. Big 3 has been around forever so many retirees are paid out.

Quote: This $29 cost gap reflects the way Big Three management and unions have conspired to make themselves uncompetitive -- increasingly so as their market share has collapsed (see the top chart above). Over the decades the United Auto Workers won pension and health-care benefits far more generous than in almost any other American industry. As a result, for every UAW member working at a U.S. car maker today, three retirees collect benefits; at GM, the ratio is 4.6 to one (see chart below).
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_otfwl2zc6Qc/STPui9NmkRI/AAAAAAAAH58/jHEg59tlcm8/s1600/retired.jpg

http://mjperry.blogspot.com/2008/12/big ... sy-vs.html (http://mjperry.blogspot.com/2008/12/big-3-vs-foreign-transplants-fantasy-vs.html)

[69gt4speed]

Why don't the big 3 have enough money to pay retirees, I mean they should of saved and invested that money to allow for the day when the worker would retire, right? I suspect they bought co. stock and we know that's worth 1/10th compared to what it used to be. So somewhere it comes back to poor choices. Course we all have taken a hit maybe not lost 90% of our 401k's yet it is plenty. There are 3 guys I work with that had to postpone retirement till they can recoup losses.

[allgo]

w/o reading others responses, two words, "Domino effect".

Totally agree... everyone is kidding themselves to not to think this will effect everyone if this doesnt happen. This isnt AIG... :Hangman:

[69gt4speed]

Getting back to Zac, I agree a ignition cylinder should be reliable no matter if you have 20 keys hanging off of it. That's bs.

(Aig), well I got them for car insurance, those jokers never did send my declarations and insurance cards this last go around (nov), had to call them. Probably getting their nails polished or on another hunting/golf trip. I told them that and that if stopped I get a 50 dollar ticket per occurance no matter what.

[Domestic Disturbance]

w/o reading others responses, two words, "Domino effect".

Totally agree... everyone is kidding themselves to not to think this will effect everyone if this doesnt happen. This isnt AIG... :Hangman:

agree'd. whether we like the idea or not, lets hope it comes out for the better

[69gt4speed]

Zee what about your ideas, or choices? A loyal gm owner ought to have a opinion.

[Drifte]

The big 3 have this country in their pocket. Greedy is an understatement. They set the rules around here, environmental rules forced upon them have simply been removed by them. I know GM bought up trollies and Subway systems and simply shut them down. Pathetic, at what point does it become a monopoly? We of course have no choice at this point but to help them get through this.

I think we should bring these companies back to reality. Enforce such strict rules on them for the loans that they are in our pocket (sort of speak). Supply and demand haha, they simply ignored that didnt they. Limit production, tighten up emissions and and level out the pay. It is just unnecessary the pay some of those CEO etc get. If them not getting payed for a year saves the company...doesnt that say something!!

[Ricky]

let them die, or like colton said... let them figure out why they are losing money and in the whole and cut back on some things. The government want to fucking bail out every big company it seems like. They all are spending more then they make and its time for a reality check.

[69gt4speed]

It appears auto co. will get 15 billion now of already promised money for green cars. A fed car czar is going to oversee the implementation. No bonuses, parachutes, and they have to sell corporate jets. This for gm and chrysler not exactly sure what ford will get since they are better off. Any future profits suppose to be paid back to us before any stockholder.

[DJ0820]

http://photos-h.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-snc1/v1047/9/34/533219805/n533219805_991527_5737.jpg

[Drifte]

^that pretty much sums up how I feel. I could leave a long list of cursing after which but I'll keep it pg.

[69gt4speed]

You guys are awful. japan subsidized those auto co. for yrs w gov. money and china does too. Along w korea. Don't believe me look it up. Don't worry honda etc. will be asking for $ there soon. I got a nissan, tell you it's ok nothing great. engine clatters like a bitch when started till adjusters pump up. common issue.

[Domestic Disturbance]

its all personal opinion. I'd rather our money go towards saving a primary company in our country, that be teaching an iraqi how to count. Nothing against the war, but atleast this is prioritized in our own countries best interest.

[DJ0820]

Opinion has nothing to do with it. The Big 3 are failing are a massive scale due to many reasons one being poor product quality. No opinion or speculation there. The proof is in the pudding and they're in the shitter.

[Drifte]

You guys are awful. japan subsidized those auto co. for yrs w gov. money and china does too. Along w korea. Don't believe me look it up. Don't worry honda etc. will be asking for $ there soon. I got a nissan, tell you it's ok nothing great. engine clatters like a bitch when started till adjusters pump up. common issue.

They can spend money however they want in other countries. But if what I conclude from all of your information is " they did it so, so can we." and " they did this and the economy is is headed to worse times than we are." then I don't see the relevance.

I do understand we pretty much have no choice but loan the big three the money. I'm watching a movie now and my iPod makes annoying clicks so that's all for now.

[69gt4speed]

D/d "I'd rather our money go towards saving a primary company in our country, that be teaching an iraqi how to count. Nothing against the war, but atleast this is prioritized in our own countries best interest."

15/35 billion is change compared to 9/12 billion a month imo. But I do like camaros and challengers. I hope they keep them, as profit margin should be good. Limited numbers at least. Like the shelby. Btw no import usa car co. factory wants big 3 bankruptcy as they buy from same ppl for interiors and so on and the fear of some kind of protection for big 3 cars. Either case cost would go up.

[ZEE]

Now that the government will now have a say in the auto market. Say goodbye to sports cars. The government has wanted more control over the auto market for years. They've been wanting the big3 to make highly efficient cars for years. The public at large does not want that. They love their big cars that can haul a family of five around and pull their boats. Now the gov will have all the leverage it needs. They can now enforce their tree hugging agenda for cars the public won't buy anyways. All in the name of the environment.

[Drifte]

Thats good and bad. We all hate government control, especially when it involves our cars! But something had to be done, to save jobs and help the environment. I dont know if any of you have seen the damage cars have caused with NOx and such. I'll stay out of the environment side of things as it could easily take pages.

So the government will have say in new cars from GM, Chrysler and Ford. What do I really care I've never owned any of their cars and so far dont intend to. I buy old cars and work on them (so far Nissan, Mitsubishi, Honda), keep them going. So I dont intend to buy from the big 3, but my money will go towards saving them so that people keep their jobs. I'm all for our country surviving and thriving, but that involves change from time to time.

"its all personal opinion. I'd rather our money go towards saving a primary company in our country, that be teaching an iraqi how to count. Nothing against the war, but atleast this is prioritized in our own countries best interest."

I dont really know what you said here.

[Drifte]

"say goodbye to sports cars..."

Like what ones? Clearly not a necessity, but other companies do make sports cars.

[69gt4speed]

"say goodbye to sports cars..."

Like what ones? Clearly not a necessity, but other companies do make sports cars.

Imo he's talkin rwd usa cars imo.

It seems the southern r. senators w foreign plants want to throw a wrench in to bust the unions. And want to have them make the same dollar/hr, well sh-t that's a raise. Like I said the retirees are the big deal. U have 4 retirees to 1 real worker it's overhead w stock prices as they are. Sen. shelby etc. is smokin some wacky stuff imo.


"I dont really know what you said here. "

9/12 billion a month in iraq is mo than 15/35 billion for big 3. Besides that, 15 and mo was already promised to big 3 for green cars. Admin said use part of that so house said ok. That was the deal agreed to. Use part of the green money to keep them afloat till march.

[black88gt]

looks like this died in the senate.

(CNN) -- Senate Democrats and the White House failed to find 60 votes to end debate on a $14 billion auto bailout bill and bring it to a vote Thursday night, killing the measure for the year. Sen. Tom Coburn, center, and other Republican senators raised objections to the auto bailout plan Wednesday.

The 52-35 vote followed the collapse of negotiations between Senate Democrats and Republicans seeking a compromise. "We have worked and worked and we can spend all night tonight, tomorrow, Saturday, and Sunday, and we're not going to get to the finish line," Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid said on the Senate floor before the vote. "That's just the way it is. There's too much difference between the two sides."

Reid acknowledged the bill would not survive the procedural vote.

Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell said the sticking point was the United Auto Workers' refusal to set a "date certain" to put employees at U.S. auto manufacturers at "parity pay" with U.S. employees at foreign automakers in the United States.

Currently, analysts estimate the union workers at U.S. automakers make about $3 to $4 per hour more than the non-union U.S. employees of foreign automakers like Toyota and Honda, according to the Center for Automotive Research. Video Watch the market ramifications of the bailout failure »

The House easily passed the bailout bill earlier this week, but it quickly ran into trouble in the Senate, where Republicans objected to several provisions. Negotiations Thursday involved a compromise proposal put forward by Sen. Bob Corker, R-Tennessee, but the senators could not reach agreement.

The collapse of negotiations could possibly doom General Motors to a bankruptcy and closure in the coming weeks, with Chrysler potentially following close behind. While Ford Motor has more cash on hand to avoid an immediate crisis, its production could be disrupted by problems in the supplier base, as could the production of overseas automakers with U.S. plants such as Toyota Motor and Honda Motor.

The struggling automakers may get some money anyway.

As part of their effort to urge skeptical Republicans to back the deal, Bush officials made clear that if Congress didn't act, the White House would have to step in to save Detroit from collapse with funds from the Troubled Asset Relief Program, according to the sources familiar with the conversations.

One of the sources said that a White House official made it clear to a GOP senator that would be the worst option, because the loan could go to the auto companies with few or no requirements along with it.
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The sources asked not to be named because of the sensitivity of private conversations.

Democrats pressed the White House from the start to help Detroit by using some of the $700 billion for the financial sector, but the White House and Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson refused.

"I would only hope that the president, who has worked so well with us for the past several weeks, would now consider using the TARP money," Reid said after Thursday night's vote.

[black88gt]

tally another one for the union, great job; wont take a 3-4 dollar pay cut to save the company.

[Drifte]

^ yea that doesnt sound like a smart move. But they are probably looking at it from another side. The company clearly knew where they were headed, but didnt make changes to suit that. Everyone under the union is pissed they work for an incompetent company and doesnt want it taken out on them. Where do they go when the company fails..idk. I'd go to Canada.

[69gt4speed]

I myself make 30/hr, would I take a 4hr cut, hell yes to save my job. Like I said the real deal is retiree pay, gm has 4 retired workers per real worker where is that money going to come from or we say fk it and cut their benefits in half for working hard for 20/30 yrs? Tell ur dad that, see where it goes. We had no 401k's back in the day, only pension and s.s.

It's a big mess that happened over time probably just have us buck up for retirees as if they go bankrupt what we will do anyways. Then look at benefits give workers like what we have. 2k deductable per person, 30 dollar a script drugs. no real sick leave. That will even the field as far as employees go w base wage at 25/27/hr.

[Ricky]

they really needed a plan before they voted on this. They needed to say "help bail us out and these are the steps we are CURRENTLY taking to save money" they needed something in place to show what they were going to do and the steps they are taking to save there asses.

They were just sitting back and hopping the government will bail them out and not lose there multi million dollar pay checks.

[Domestic Disturbance]

That union is really a menace. I'm pro union, but every time I read or hear about them its usually negative. Sure, a unions interest is to protect and help benefit the workers its supports, but it must ALSO look at the better interest of the company. To help it more than hurt it. After all, if the company doesn't prevail, the union ends up worthless anyways.

[ZEE]

The unions knew the score. They new as well as everybody else that the gov wasn't going to let them go down. Why take a pay cut when the gov will for sure bail you out. Would you take a pay cut knowing the gov was going to bail you out? Of course not. To what rob said it's the legacy debt that is costing them. I mean face it these companies have been in business for a long long time. That could equate to a lot of retirees. Yes the unions negotiated the retirements for some long ago. So even if they changed things now it wouldn't effect that. Just new hires. Those people make good wages yes. Unions usually help the industry as a whole whether a union shop or not. Non union shops must raise their wages to a certain level to discourage organization and to attract employees. Another thing, the gov bailed out the banking industry for their poor practices so why not the auto industry also.

You hear nothing about management either. You think any of them are going to give up their overbloated salaries? I think not. It's way to easy to blame the working man. Companies that large I bet have an incredible upper management force which probably isn't needed. Let's get rid of some of them instead of the people that actually do all the work.

The only way the auto industry is going to get out of the mess they are in is some form of bankruptcy. Good thing is they can get out of some of the retirement debts and other contracts, including union ones. Bad news government may end up paying the retirement debt, read tax payers. Also loss of jobs and plants. But hey if that's what it takes to get back to being profitable building the cars the gov wants, not the people, so be it. I say pull the stupid cafe standards and drop the save the earth global warming bull and let the industry build cars people will buy. Nobody wants a hybrid that won't pay for itself or an unreliable unproven electric car. Last I looked there isn't any place to plug the damn thing in at the parking lot.

[DustinsDuster]

maybe the big three need to have a meeting with the Bobs (im too lazy to put any effort into the photoshop)

[Domestic Disturbance]

As far as I know all the heads at gm are on a $1/year salarie as of now. It is narrow minded of me to look at one thing and call it the problem, when obviously its across the board that brought them down to this point. Btw, hyrdogen cars are just around the corner. Its actually a simple and reliable setup, that doesn't take hours to charge. Jay Leno put it best on Top Gear last week. That direction will save more gas for those of us who will still want and use it. Nothing wrong with that

[69gt4speed]

I agree w Zee it isn't really the real worker.

A very pro foreign car coworker came in work the other day and said damn Rob u were right, they are not making any mo money than us per hr. Their benefits are better... But look at 95% pay chrysler workers get on shut down, I'd be mighty happy to shut down. But maybe that's only a 40hr week who knows? I work 56 hrs mostly. I will work 56 + 24 this week. That's $, a big deal for sure. Tired, sh-tty, and stinking, yea that's what it takes to support us/kids and my hobbies and bs. And yes so far haven't seen any plugins in our parking lot for the green co. We are non union but to keep it that way we are paid a lil more per hr. That's the deal truly..W/o them we wouldn't be making jack imo. Esp for maint. it's overhead so they say, we keep their stuff running and making $...Idk w/o lowly workers, they could not exist. So imo we are mo valuable than many management ppl. We know what to do and do it. If we and ops do crappy we get less hrs or shut down. That's Stupid... So imo problems are elsewhere.

Buy our products, see the mod/ls/hemi spanking some vehicle. That's my plug for our co. and for the big 3.

[ZEE]

Hydrogen cars may be around the corner but who's gonna buy one. You? Me? Doubt it. Some body with plenty of money to buy a very expensive to make and buy car that is untested and not as reliable as the old gas burning engine that has been tried and true for a couple of hundred years. Not to mention who the hell is going to work on it when it breaks. Don't think tuffys is gonna handle that one. These types of cars may be around the corner but it will be another 50 years before good old Joe Shmoe can afford to buy and maintain one.

[Domestic Disturbance]

The Hydrogen market is so appealing not only due to the fact of the resources' abundance, but the simplicity of the design. Very few moving parts, and relatively easy to understand and fix, and simplicity leading to keep the overall vehicle prices down.

Obviously, with a brand new platform of vehicle dumping into the market, there will be some additional expenses, but its still a much more logical and cost effective option compared to other 'answers' to using gasoline vehicles. All in all, it really depends on how well the auto industry and most likely gov't can introduce such a radical direction. Shifting from gas to hydrogen stations, learning how to work on them, means to separate hydrogen molecules and get the compressed hyrdogen, along with transporting it along with still having gasoline in the market; thats where the majority of expenses would be.

[Clinical]

Let them die - I'll buy a Saab and just put my money on never having to buy a new car in my lifetime :P